Nintendo 64 (and SNES) output issue with new TV

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:04 am

NOTE: my consoles are for the Australian PAL 50hz market.

hi i have a Sony TV (Trinitron Color TV - FB Trinitron WEGA KV-XJ29) and have noticed that the image shown on the TV has both...

A) washed out colours
B) poor frame rate
C) rather severe pixelation

when we had our Mitsubishi TV about 6 or 7 years ago (maybe more) the N64 output was perfect and flawless and kicked ass ! (you should have seen the ganon battle in OOT ( ^^ ) the contrast and colours made the atmosphere perfect on the old Mitsubishi TV, on the new Sony TV i can see everything fairly clearly (contrast sucks balls) and the colours are weird and it is all a lot more pixelated and massively less scary and a lot worse atmosphere.

i am wandering if the change is related to something in the new TV, do TVs now process any data inputted before outputting it? (AKA: via the use of a microchip or something) if yes, is there a way to disable this?

ill try my game cube AV cable tomorrow as well to see if that makes a difference.

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if nothing can be determined then i guess ill have to pay 100$ or something on a old TV

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i believe the TV resizes the 5:4 SNES image down to 4:3, on the new TV it has massive ugly black bars on the top and bottom, why? aside from this the SNES performs rather well.

all me other consoles support NTSC 60hz and don't exhibit any of these behaviors at all.

AntoineWG · Post by **AntoineWG** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:58 pm

Is it a high definition TV? They tend to have too good picture quality and bring out all of the flaws in non-HD sources.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:10 am

no, the TV well before HD TV became so popular, maybe 2 or 3 years old?

adventure_of_link · Post by **adventure_of_link** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:14 am

Standard Definition TV then? (or the Austrailian equivilant)

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:30 am

yes, standard definition, RF cable to the wall for TV and the consoles are hooked up via A/V

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:41 am

i called sony and all the guy could think of was that i was using the V Compression function >.> why would i use that? i would only use that if i set my PS2 up to stretch the image (while watching a DVD) then use V compression to restore its ratio, but why would i even do that? it degrades the image compaired to just showing it in widescreen in the first place.

edit:i'll get some pictures of what it looks like.

PHoNyMiKe · Post by **PHoNyMiKe** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:08 am

well using composite a/v cables (red white and yellow) sucks ass. if you get an s-video cable, you will see great improvements in video quality. I had this for both snes and n64, they looked great on my old projector. I'm pretty sure component/RGB cables don't work for the snes, and may not even work for the n64, but if you had those they'd be the best you can get.

get an s-video cable off ebay, that plugs directly from the snes to the tv, and you'll love it (not some converter box and shit.) maybe the composite a/v input on the tv is going bad, get s-video.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:23 am

it would need to be component AV because my tv only supports component and composite aswell as RF.

edit:

original N64 A/V cable = bright colours on both the snes and n64.
weird brand N64 A/V cable = washed out colours but looks good on the snes.
GameCube A/V cable = bright colours on both the snes and n64.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:38 am

my bad, both official Nintendo cables output with full colour, it is only the 3rd party cable that has inferior colours.

im looking into the component cable still...

snkcube · Post by **snkcube** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:01 pm

Kind of off topic, but man, playing Virtual Console games with a component cable looks amazing. I've never seen Super Mario Bros. that clear before.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:32 am

franpa wrote:my bad, both official Nintendo cables output with full colour, it is only the 3rd party cable that has inferior colours.

im looking into the component cable still...

Have fun. Both systems existed before component video.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:23 am

ive seen the cables there at electronics boutique, they got a component A/V cable for the N64 and the cable "SHOULD" work for the SNES as well, but as you said, the results might not be what im after because the games were designed for composet and RF.

PHoNyMiKe · Post by **PHoNyMiKe** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:52 am

according to this website, snes has RGB out yet the n64 doesn't. I've never tried a component cable myself, but there's no guarantees it'll work. places sell shit and just because it's the same plug doesn't mean it will work. but give it a try, the snes should work, but you'll pry have to open up the n64 and modify it to work, and even then it won't be as great as you'd think.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:23 am

ok then, thanks for the link.

if only we kept a RF adapter for the snes.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:50 am

franpa wrote:ive seen the cables there at electronics boutique, they got a component A/V cable for the N64 and the cable "SHOULD" work for the SNES as well, but as you said, the results might not be what im after because the games were designed for composet and RF.

They lied to you, or you misread composite as component.

Neither system outputs component video.
The GameCube does, but only on the digital ouot connector, not on the analog multi-out connector.
The Wii does, but through a new AV connector.

There is NO component video cable that will fit an SNES/N64.
Just composite, s-video, and RGB.

As for what cables WORK...
The original-design SNES has both s-video and RGB in the connector. The smaller SNES2 has neither.
The N64 has no RGB.
The GameCube lacks RGB in NTSC, but it works in a PAL deck.

blackmyst · Post by **blackmyst** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:01 am

Gil_Hamilton wrote:As for what cables WORK...
The original-design SNES has both s-video and RGB in the connector. The smaller SNES2 has neither.

I've once tried connecting my Cube RGB cable to my PAL SNES but all I got was an extremely dark fuzzy monochrome image.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:29 am

blackmyst wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:As for what cables WORK...
The original-design SNES has both s-video and RGB in the connector. The smaller SNES2 has neither.
I've once tried connecting my Cube RGB cable to my PAL SNES but all I got was an extremely dark fuzzy monochrome image.

If I recall, they output at different levels. There's some caps or resistors that need changing.
It never mattered to me, so I don't recall the exact details. Just that the cables aren't totally identical.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:37 am

what is RGB? i thought a component cable was a RGB cable.

im aware the gamecube lacks support for component connection because it states in the instruction manual that the specific model i got just wont work with it.

im also aware that they left the SNES2 with only RF output (to make it smaller)

i also became aware that i must of misread the products at the store in regards to component A/V for the N64.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:13 am

franpa wrote:what is RGB? i thought a component cable was a RGB cable.

RGB carries separate Red, Green, and Blue signals. Most implementations also carry HSync and VSync as separate signals, though some use RGB and a combined sync line, or sync-on-green.
VGA is the only common consumer standard RGB in the States. In Europe, it's supported by some SCART implementations(but not all).

Component video carries red and blue as difference from green.
Only it's not really green, it's the luma signal, which is almost, but not exactly, the same thing. Red and blue are also at half the bandwidth of "green." Which isn't the huge problem it sounds like because you can't see red near as well as green, and can't hardly see blue at all next to those.
The luma signal carries the syncs also.
It's basically s-video on crack.

Why does component video exist, since it's harder to work with, and not as good as a pre-existing standard?
Because Macrovision doesn't work on RGB. The movie companies wanted DVD to support Macrovision, because we're all a bunch of dirty pirates and if it wasn't there, we'd make VHS rips and never buy a movie.

im also aware that they left the SNES2 with only RF output (to make it smaller)

NES2. And actually, RF only makes the system BIGGER, since the RF modulator is a fairly large component, and takes standard AV signals into it.

The SNES2 doesn't have an internal RF modulator. It outputs composite video only.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:48 am

Hi, the current issue is slightly different now. the colours/contrast are perfect and the games look brilliant. the problem is that there is massive framerate problems in games that should not have any at all or any where near as severe as this.

most notably and annoying is the game i just bought, Banjo Tooie. Looking at Bottles ghostly form results in massive frame skipping and so does looking in the distance in the start area. swimming and looking at the waterfall at the same time results in like 10fps or less.... can't really gauge it and overall the game is unplayable.

What i am after is if someone knows if the console it self is damaged or if the memory expansion pack is? what -local- stores sell the tool needed to open the n64?

this particular game and many others ran flawlessly ages ago on the exact same console on (i believe) the same T.V.

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the SNES image quality is because the T.V. does resize the image so that it all fits. this means it is not displayed at full resolution ;\

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:46 am

franpa wrote:the SNES image quality is because the T.V. does resize the image so that it all fits. this means it is not displayed at full resolution ;\

No, it's still displayed at full resolution. Actually, it's higher resolution than the SNES outputs. There's just an unfortunate pile of scaling artifacts(I assume this is an LCD display).

Be glad it works at all. LCDs have been notorious for choking on the semi-standard or non-standard timings used by the majority of older game consoles.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:28 am

its a standard CRT TV. the issue is that the image is scaled down to fit it all instead of cropping the edges or simply not adjusting the image like what good old televisions used to do.

the biggest issue at the moment is with the n64 since it has a greater chance of being resolved at some point.

Astoroth88 · Post by **Astoroth88** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:34 am

bad brand of T.V. I suppose lol
I Have a Sylvania SDTV (What ever that's supposed to mean) and I play my N64 'n SNES on it just fine with normal Red/White/Yellow cords. My Wii plays just fine as well. I think you may just have a bad T.V. That's just my opinion.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:15 am

gamecube using the exact same A/V cables works at a flawless framerate. it is only the n64 that fails horrendously. the N64 did work flawless on the same TV a few years ago. all signs point to the console it self failing. next time im going to go to the shops ill call up a few places and see if i can compare my n64 with one they have in stock and see if it is indeed my console that is damaged.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:39 am

franpa wrote:its a standard CRT TV. the issue is that the image is scaled down to fit it all instead of cropping the edges or simply not adjusting the image like what good old televisions used to do.

*bangs head*
You're seeing the entire image! IT'S A GOOD THING!

There is no exotic scaling down of resolution taking place! Just a TV with overscan settings that leave your entire game inside the screen!

franpa wrote:gamecube using the exact same A/V cables works at a flawless framerate. it is only the n64 that fails horrendously. the N64 did work flawless on the same TV a few years ago. all signs point to the console it self failing.

No shit, Sherlock?

Video cords CANNOT change the behavior of the system.
...
Well, unless you're using something with fancy-pants mode selection pins, like XBoxes.

next time im going to go to the shops ill call up a few places and see if i can compare my n64 with one they have in stock and see if it is indeed my console that is damaged.

Or you can just buy a new one, since we already KNOW it's busted.