Need Help With ZSNES On An Older Machine

[odditude]

USB will not work under DOS 7.0. There was very little new functionality in "DOS 7," basically just LFN support (if Windows is loaded) - it only exists as the underlying layer for win9x. More was taken out than added.

Audio won't work if you haven't installed the DOS utilities provided by the audio chipset maker.

[creaothceann]

As for the BLASTER environment variable error... you DID capitalize SET BLASTER, right?

It shouldn't matter - afaik DOS automatically converts everything to uppercase.

[odditude]

DOS is largely case-insensitive in general.

[Gil_Hamilton]

As for the BLASTER environment variable error... you DID capitalize SET BLASTER, right?

It shouldn't matter - afaik DOS automatically converts everything to uppercase.

Environment variables are one of the very few places where MS-DOS IS case-sensitive, if I recall.
Not 100% sure, because I can't check it right now. But 85%.

The SET part is definitely case-insensitive, though, as it's a command, and all commands are case-insensitive.
So set BLASTER, Set BLASTER, and SET BLASTER all work.



I KNOW the space would cause problems.
If my legacy box was bootable, I could check the case-sensitivity.

[odditude]

As for the BLASTER environment variable error... you DID capitalize SET BLASTER, right?

It shouldn't matter - afaik DOS automatically converts everything to uppercase.

Environment variables are one of the very few places where MS-DOS IS case-sensitive, if I recall.
Not 100% sure, because I can't check it right now. But 85%.

The SET part is definitely case-insensitive, though, as it's a command, and all commands are case-insensitive.
So set BLASTER, Set BLASTER, and SET BLASTER all work.



I KNOW the space would cause problems.
If my legacy box was bootable, I could check the case-sensitivity.

environment variable names are case-insensitive as well. test by creating one and then viewing the list with SET. you can set path, paTH, pAtH, or PATH and they're all going to end up as PATH.

[SPX]

When you are running a game, hit F1.. there will be a menu for what you are looking for.

Okay, thanks for the tip here. I took a few minutes to experiment a bit with Megaman and it looks like with the sound on I'm usually getting around 5-6 FPS, with it sometimes dropping as low as 4. Without sound, I was usually getting 14-15, with a low of 12 and a high of 16 FPS.

I thought it was quite playable without sound. I am really surprised that something like a little MIDI music needs so much CPU power that there is that much of a performance hit.

[Gil_Hamilton]

When you are running a game, hit F1.. there will be a menu for what you are looking for.

Okay, thanks for the tip here. I took a few minutes to experiment a bit with Megaman and it looks like with the sound on I'm usually getting around 5-6 FPS, with it sometimes dropping as low as 4. Without sound, I was usually getting 14-15, with a low of 12 and a high of 16 FPS.

I thought it was quite playable without sound. I am really surprised that something like a little MIDI music needs so much CPU power that there is that much of a performance hit.

*twitch*
IT'S NOT MIDI! IT'S NOT EVEN RELATED!

[SPX]

*twitch*
IT'S NOT MIDI! IT'S NOT EVEN RELATED!

Well whatever. You know what I mean. That blippy shit. Maybe you should explain the difference.

[Gil_Hamilton]

*twitch*
IT'S NOT MIDI! IT'S NOT EVEN RELATED!

Well whatever. You know what I mean. That blippy shit. Maybe you should explain the difference.

A. The SNES has fairly good sound capabilities. 16-bit, 32KHz samples is better than CD-quality, and any decent software will show this fairly well.
I'm not sure where you get "blippy shit" from.


B. MIDI isn't a sound reproduction standard. It's an interface standard.
Odds are good that your fancy-pants redbook audio on your elite hoity-toity CD media is recorded in part from high-end MIDI equipment.



MIDI's poor reputation is ENTIRELY from the FM synthesizers on early Sound Blasters and compatibles.
And THAT stems in part from the fact that they were often fed data intended for a different synthesizer(likely Roland's Sound Canvas family). Since MIDI is an INTERFACE standard and not a PLAYBACK standard, this resulted in ... odd ... music, as different synthesizer classes would generate totally different results from the same input.

The General MIDI synthesizer standards was created to help close this hole, by creating a universal set of features and voices that any GM synth would support, guaranteeing a GM composition would play back properly on any GM synth.

But it was too little too late. The chaos of the early days had forever damned MIDI in the consumer's eyes, though it is still in incredibly common usage at a professional level.


When it's used at the consumer level, great pains are taken to avoid calling attention to the fact, due to it's undeserved reputation.

For example, the upcoming Guitar Hero: World Tour uses MIDI for the controller interface(as the standard was intended), and uses MIDI for user-generated songs(and PROBABLY for the player pieces on the commercial songs, though good luck getting them to confirm or deny that one).

[SPX]

Gil:

Well I stand corrected, sir. I do apologize. And thank you for your thorough explanation there. I still can't say I fully understand it, but that was certainly an interesting read.

As far as what I know of MIDI, most of my ideas come two experiences. Several years ago I downloaded a "MIDI version" of a Megadeth song. Not sure if you've ever listened to Megadeth, but they are a kick ass old school metal band. However, the reputedly "MIDI version" was a synthesized, electronic, and decidedly blippy version of the real song. My other experience has to do with the NES game Ninja Gaiden. Someone once set out to recreate the music in the game, purely by ear, and they said it was "MIDI."

Now, as far as my explanation of "blippy shit" goes, well, if you listen to game music in the pre-CD era, it was pretty much exclusively electronic tracks that sounded like music created from "blips" and "beeps" of different tones. It wasn't symphonic. Once CDs came along, things changed. This has nothing to do with the SNES's capabilities but with the in-game music of the era. And even with that said, I'm not saying it's BAD. I actually like the music of Ninja Gaiden, for instance (which is why I was researching it), but it's definitely of a certain style so to speak.

Anyway, I hope that explains things. Sorry I talked shit on MIDI.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Gil:

Well I stand corrected, sir. I do apologize. And thank you for your thorough explanation there. I still can't say I fully understand it, but that was certainly an interesting read.

No problem.

To dumb it down a good bit, MIDI is more like sheet music than an actual recording.
Sure, you can play sheet music written for a grand piano on an electric guitar, but... it's not gonna be right. Not nearly right.

As far as what I know of MIDI, most of my ideas come two experiences. Several years ago I downloaded a "MIDI version" of a Megadeth song. Not sure if you've ever listened to Megadeth, but they are a kick ass old school metal band. However, the reputedly "MIDI version" was a synthesized, electronic, and decidedly blippy version of the real song.

As I said, that depends on the hardware.

If it was on a sound card with an FM synthesizer, that's to be expected.
Wavetable synthesis is generally more realistic, but it varies wildly with the quality of the samples used.

I've had some fun feeding MIDI tunes into different synths and seeing what goes wrong(or right).
Most notably, I have an SC-55 emulator installed(primarily for DOSBox and games designed for that hardware, though it's also seen some usage with an X68k emulator).

I've also got one tune that's explicitly designed for an SC-88. Pity the only emu I can find for that is A. Shareware, and B. prone to crashing.

And now I'm nerding out again.

My other experience has to do with the NES game Ninja Gaiden. Someone once set out to recreate the music in the game, purely by ear, and they said it was "MIDI."

They were very wrong.
It's a common misconception that the NES is MIDI. And again, it goes back to the FM synth thing.

Speaking of... you mentioned your laptop has an OPL3?
That would be one of those FM synth chips. The same one used on the (earlier) Sound Blaster 16s, even
If you play back the same MIDI file on your laptop and a more modern desktop machine, you can hear the difference.

Actually, I think Win98 came with a software wavetable synthesizer.
Open the run box from the start menu, type "dxdiag" and when it comes up, go to the music tab. You can select a synthesizer and hit test and it'll play it's sample MIDI file through whatever synth is selected.
I'm on XP right now, but it should be similar to THIS

Now, as far as my explanation of "blippy shit" goes, well, if you listen to game music in the pre-CD era, it was pretty much exclusively electronic tracks that sounded like music created from "blips" and "beeps" of different tones. It wasn't symphonic. Once CDs came along, things changed. This has nothing to do with the SNES's capabilities but with the in-game music of the era.

Stylistic beepiness rather than technical beepiness. Okay, that makes sense.

I can point to a number of counter-examples, but the NES and/or techno influence WAS fairly large in a lot of games.

Chrono Trigger is probably my favorite SNES soundtrack, though.

And even with that said, I'm not saying it's BAD. I actually like the music of Ninja Gaiden, for instance (which is why I was researching it), but it's definitely of a certain style so to speak.

Fair enough.
Usually if someone brings MIDI out, it's in a disparaging manner, so I just assumed.

SNES Ninja Gaiden is sad, though.
It's like the guy doing the remixes was working under the primary guideline of "Okay, we have eight channels now instead of 4. Make sure you use them ALL."

Anyway, I hope that explains things. Sorry I talked shit on MIDI.

'S coo'.

[grinvader]

I am really surprised that something like a little MIDI music needs so much CPU power that there is that much of a performance hit.

Now that Gil has cleared the fact it's not MIDI and MIDI can sound good too, know that the snes sound is produced by two cores (spc700 and dsp) separate from the main cpu. Maybe you can better understand the performance hit now.

[creaothceann]

Environment variables are one of the very few places where MS-DOS IS case-sensitive, if I recall.
Not 100% sure, because I can't check it right now. But 85%.

NT's environment variables are case-sensitive, even in the console. DOS's are not case-sensitive. Not sure about Win9x/ME, but I guess they're also not case-sensitive.

The SNES has fairly good sound capabilities. 16-bit, 32KHz samples is better than CD-quality

Isn't a CD officially 44.1 kHz? (Would require ca. 172 KB/s, but 1x speed is 150 KB/s)

I think Win98 came with a software wavetable synthesizer.

It was included with DirectX iirc, so it was even available in Win95.


Just my two cents.

[odditude]

It was included with DirectX iirc, so it was even available in Win95.

DX6, I believe, but it was the one that introduced "DirectMusic."

[kode54]

Isn't a CD officially 44.1 kHz? (Would require ca. 172 KB/s, but 1x speed is 150 KB/s)

Yes, 44100Hz. Base speed is 150 KB/s at 2048 bytes per sector, but CD audio is 2352 byte raw sectors, so about 172 KB/s.

[creaothceann]

Ah, thx.

[Gil_Hamilton]

The SNES has fairly good sound capabilities. 16-bit, 32KHz samples is better than CD-quality

Isn't a CD officially 44.1 kHz? (Would require ca. 172 KB/s, but 1x speed is 150 KB/s)

Ya know... I actually knew that.

*hangs head in shame*

[SPX]

I'm sorry to announce that I have apparently killed my Libretto during the overclocking operation. If I can find one on eBay for parts that has a good mobo then I can switch them out and resurrect it but for now it's a paperweight, unfortunately.

[Deathlike2]

This is one of the few "I told you so" moments. You would have never been able to maximize the overclock on ancient Pentiums... the best you can do is a slight one.

[SPX]

This is one of the few "I told you so" moments. You would have never been able to maximize the overclock on ancient Pentiums... the best you can do is a slight one.

Well, as mentioned, you can definitely do it. I know of many people who have gone from 166 MHz to 266. That's a 2/3 jump! If you don't believe it can happen, change the link in my earlier post or search around for "overclock Libretto" or "overclock Libretto 100CT."

Unfortunately, my soldering prowess wasn't up to the challenge apparently and I couldn't manage to bridge the necessary components without fucking everything else up in the process.