NES Color Palette of Choice

gllt · Post by **gllt** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:05 am

I never played Contra.

FirebrandX · Post by **FirebrandX** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:22 pm

Contra was hot shit when it came out. 2-player shirtless blasting of aliens was a fun new experience for the home family.

Post by **odditude** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:46 pm

FirebrandX wrote:Contra is the shit.

fixed.

FirebrandX · Post by **FirebrandX** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:05 am

odditude wrote:
FirebrandX wrote:Contra is the shit.
fixed.

Maybe a step further with "Contra is da shit"?

Post by **odditude** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:06 am

FirebrandX wrote:Contra is da shizzle.

fixed again.

FirebrandX · Post by **FirebrandX** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:18 am

Fo shizzle my nizzle.

(ok, enough derailing)

ZH/Franky · Post by **ZH/Franky** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:27 am

The fact that Contra is the shizzle.. is the shizzle.

Squall_Leonhart · Post by **Squall_Leonhart** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:33 pm

FirebrandX wrote:I've knocked out a couple more highlight color entries using Mega Man 6 stages. I also found my earthtones were slightly too green, so I toned them down slightly. This changes the Contra comparison pic. So I closely checked the new tones and indeed its a little more accurate to the NES output. Here's the updated Contra comparison pic:

This update finishes the majority of the file calibration I wanted. Only a few straggling highlight colors remain, but its getting difficult to find usage of these colors in games. If I do find them, I will update the file, but for now I'm calling it finished.

Nice, I got the same colours in my own palette.

85cocoa · Post by **85cocoa** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:52 am

Removed, see below

FirebrandX · Post by **FirebrandX** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:15 am

I think he means he has his own custom palette. I've been quite happy with mine for NTSC. I've since played several games and they look just as they do on my NES.

Somebody else would need to do a PAL version as I don't have the equipment for that.

Squall_Leonhart · Post by **Squall_Leonhart** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:41 am

85cocoa wrote:
Squall_Leonhart wrote:original text by FirebrandX redacted
Nice, I got the same colours in my own palette.
Could it be worth you uploading your palette somewhere so we could take a look? (Is it actually a palette you created yourself, or are you referring to some emulator's color settings?)

http://board.zsnes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 880#182880

85cocoa · Post by **85cocoa** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:52 am

Okay, thank you. Sorry for the confusion.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:58 am

firebrandx, will this link always point to your latest work (unless you move to another file hoster of course) http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fbx2pal.zip ?

85cocoa · Post by **85cocoa** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:07 am

FirebrandX has announced neither any further updates to the palette nor any changes to the link. I don't think he would update the palette without telling us.

I've taken a quick look at Squall_Leonhart's palette in an emulator's palette editor, and the color transitions don't seem as smooth as in most other "accurate" palettes such as the previous work by AspiringSquire and FirebrandX. Can this be accounted for by the difference between composite and RF output, differences between TV sets, etc.?

Squall_Leonhart · Post by **Squall_Leonhart** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:41 am

It can be, Composite out tends to be more reddish, compared to the RF connector, Few Palettes impress me though, Firebrands is one of the ones that do, though most of the others,... well take a look at kirby and you'll see where it fails. lol. Some of them have him a purple colour, whereas hes more a flesh pink.

as for AspiringSquire, i wasn't impressed at all by the colours.

Palettes are better compared in action, rather then in palette editors.

Still, Firebrands palette, has pinks where there should be purple, and purple where there should be pink, blues are more purplish as well, Even on a NTSC to PAL comparison, some colours are off. TV quality might account for some, but not as much as the differences tend to be.

Greens aren't vibrant as they are on the nes. even the Composite had more vibrant greens.

And then theres those Purple curtains in LoZ2, which are definitely nowhere near as bright purple on a NES via composite.

the big problem is taking into account for the difference between RGB and YUV values, which always causes the major difference between the TV via RF and the composite value.

I'd also point out that if you are trying to achieve a smooth transition, then you're not being true to the nes colours, the colours were never smooth to begin with.

The Game i focused on the most though, was Astyanax, Using multiple TV's, and both PAL and NTSC copies which i've procured, I identified a number of incorrect colours due to the extensive use of certain colours in banner and wall textures, the fastest thing you notice is wrong is the opening title, which on most palettes is a Pink-Flesh colour, where as on the NES via both Composite, and RF its a purple.

FirebrandX · Post by **FirebrandX** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:19 am

Squall_Leonhart wrote:
Still, Firebrands palette, has pinks where there should be purple, and purple where there should be pink, blues are more purplish as well, Even on a NTSC to PAL comparison, some colours are off. TV quality might account for some, but not as much as the differences tend to be.

perhaps there may be different versions of the NTSC front-loading deck. I've done very careful comparisons of the pinks and purples, and they look spot-on with my deck.

Greens aren't vibrant as they are on the nes. even the Composite had more vibrant greens.

This was a difficult issue that seems to involve how much color interaction there is in the game being tested. Greens were spot-on in Contra, but in other games weren't quite as vibrant. In this case, I'd use the term saturation. It was almost impossible to get a comparitive green template that matched every game, so I went with the closest average I could get.

And then theres those Purple curtains in LoZ2, which are definitely nowhere near as bright purple on a NES via composite.

This I particularly looked at because I remembered before when you pointed this out about ASQ's palette. As it turns out, the purple curtains look EXACLTY the same on my deck as they do in the palette. They literally look that intense from my deck's composite output on my HDTV.

the big problem is taking into account for the difference between RGB and YUV values, which always causes the major difference between the TV via RF and the composite value.

This might account for the purples and pinks we differ on. My LCD is RGB based, and thus most likely converts the YUV from the composite input.

I'd also point out that if you are trying to achieve a smooth transition, then you're not being true to the nes colours, the colours were never smooth to begin with.

This I agree with, although they appear 'generally' smooth in the palette editor for what I have going currently. Its just not a mathematical smoothness we'd all had hoped for. That would have been too easy.

The Game i focused on the most though, was Astyanax, Using multiple TV's, and both PAL and NTSC copies which i've procured, I identified a number of incorrect colours due to the extensive use of certain colours in banner and wall textures, the fastest thing you notice is wrong is the opening title, which on most palettes is a Pink-Flesh colour, where as on the NES via both Composite, and RF its a purple.

I went with a large collection of NTSC games and cross-referenced colors to come up with an average. I may need to obtain a physical copy of Astyanax, if just to test for the title color on my deck. At any rate, I prefer to keep PAL and NTSC as entirely different palette sets, so I only did an NTSC version.

85cocoa · Post by **85cocoa** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 am

@Squall_Leonhart: What type of TV set are you using? (CRT, or some other display technology?)

I apologize for not testing more extensively with actual gameplay before complaining (and I admit that I do not have access to an actual NES at the moment). I also was not clear enough when I said "other palettes/previous work," where I failed to mention that I also had many of BMF54123's palettes in mind, as well as Nestopia's implementation of blargg's nes_ntsc library. Basically, my point is that FirebrandX's palette somehow looked more "typical" to me than Squall_Leonhart's.

I recall seeing somewhere that there are at least two different PPU revisions used in the NTSC NES (RP2C02G and H; the former is used mainly in the original release of the NES, while the latter is used mainly in the NES 2 and has worse RF output quality). There is information on the NTSC NES video output at http://nesdevwiki.org/wiki/NTSC_Video , but I'm not sure which PPU revision it's based on.

h4tred · Post by **h4tred** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:35 am

Squall's using PAL based technology.

FirebrandX · Post by **FirebrandX** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:42 am

The PAL issue might explain it.

As a test, I took a digital photo of the purple graphics in Zelda's room (Zelda 2: AoL) and created a comparison shot along with mine and Squall's palette file. My apologies for the poor quality of the photo shot, but its the best I could get:

The left image is the photo taken from my HDTV. The middle image is my palette, and the right image is Squall's palette. As you can see, the graphics do show up quite purple on the composite output, which is how I made mine look. Squall's has a VERY bluish tone to them that looked quite different than what I am used to. As a double-check, I hooked the NES up to my CRT in the living room and the hue was also purple there. I'll try to get a digital photo from that set as well tomorrow.

At any rate, I'm really hoping its the PAL issue. I'd hate to think various NTSC decks would be that different in hue output!

85cocoa · Post by **85cocoa** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:49 am

Yes, there is supposed to be some sort of "15-degree" hue difference between the NTSC and PAL versions of the NES. (This is not documented on NESdevWiki, and I don't have any NESdev forum threads handy, but I know it has been discussed there a few times.)

I was going to mention issues such as the BT.601 vs. BT.709 versions of YUV, but that is easily outweighed by apples-versus-oranges comparisons like NTSC vs. PAL.

Squall_Leonhart · Post by **Squall_Leonhart** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:55 am

FirebrandX wrote:The PAL issue might explain it.

As a test, I took a digital photo of the purple graphics in Zelda's room (Zelda 2: AoL) and created a comparison shot along with mine and Squall's palette file. My apologies for the poor quality of the photo shot, but its the best I could get:

The left image is the photo taken from my HDTV. The middle image is my palette, and the right image is Squall's palette. As you can see, the graphics do show up quite purple on the composite output, which is how I made mine look. Squall's has a VERY bluish tone to them that looked quite different than what I am used to. As a double-check, I hooked the NES up to my CRT in the living room and the hue was also purple there. I'll try to get a digital photo from that set as well tomorrow.

At any rate, I'm really hoping its the PAL issue. I'd hate to think various NTSC decks would be that different in hue output!

Composite or RF, Theres a definite difference even between those on the same TV on the same console.

I'll post screenshots via a TV Card later, of the hue difference between RF and AV.

Squall_Leonhart · Post by **Squall_Leonhart** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:07 am

85cocoa wrote:@Squall_Leonhart: What type of TV set are you using? (CRT, or some other display technology?)

a mix of CRT's and LCD's, It was a major pita to get a converter to plug the RF in to an LCD.

I recall seeing somewhere that there are at least two different PPU revisions used in the NTSC NES (RP2C02G and H; the former is used mainly in the original release of the NES, while the latter is used mainly in the NES 2 and has worse RF output quality). There is information on the NTSC NES video output at http://nesdevwiki.org/wiki/NTSC_Video , but I'm not sure which PPU revision it's based on.

i have both a NES and NES2 (The ntsc nes was borrowed, so i can't test with it anymore since the jerk moved *shakes fist*)
I know about the differences with the NES2 so i didn't even basing any colours.

LOL, really though, we'll never get this right. mines probably better being renamed to PAL_RF_Accurate, I was eventually gunna do a PAL_AV_Accurate and then finish off my GBA_Accurate as well. (Which btw, i think looks pretty damn good on Contra, lol)

Btw, that hue difference isn't a definite number, its 10-30 and the hue difference differs on each colour.

85cocoa · Post by **85cocoa** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:12 pm

There is a technical reason that the (overall) hue difference between the NTSC and PAL versions of the NES is supposed to be 15 degrees - something to do with certain hues not being accurately approximable on PAL given the waveforms produced by the PPU - but as I said before, I don't have a forum thread on this handy. Give me some time to investigate.

Notice I said overall - the 15 degrees is based on theoretically ideal colors and doesn't take into consideration differences between TV sets. Also, I'm not sure whether it refers to ordinary HSV space.

Squall_Leonhart · Post by **Squall_Leonhart** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:09 am

Yup, imo, reading up on the formats, PAL is a better format anyway, especially regarding colours.

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:30 am

Squall_Leonhart wrote:Yup, imo, reading up on the formats, PAL is a better format anyway, especially regarding colours.

NTSC's color issues are only applicable to broadcast. Not wired settings.

And NTSC has a better range of colors and brightnesses that can be reproduced. That's what makes me give it the nod instead of the higher-resolution PAL.