Onlive

sweener2001 · Post by **sweener2001** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:28 am

I.S.T. wrote:
sweener2001 wrote:
creaothceann wrote:
Panzer88 wrote:they say they can accomplish it over the internet via their amazing new video compression.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/gdc-w ... rk-article
the article seems a little uninformed, or the opinion was formed too fast.

there are no specs on onlive's video encoding, so using a current and publicly available codec can't even necessarily give a ballpark estimate. eurogamer's servers probably don't compare to what onlive will have.

does anyone know what one of those tesla super computers is actually capable of? i actually don't.

i understand each of the concerns, and gizmodo has a more in depth playthough experience posted. but making these comparisons to things that are probably nothing like onlive's setup doesn't fly.

i actually hope the service works. whether i jump right in is another thing completely.
That guy is informed as hell, actually. Look up his posts at www.beyond3d.com 's forum. His name is grandmaster.

And a Tesla is basically a GeForce GTX 280. Yes, I'm not kidding.There's been a lot of research into using graphics cards/chips for normal computations lately(The reason why is the raw computational power of a graphics chip is usually higher than any consumer CPU. The problem is they are too specialized.). A tesla supercomputer basically just has a fuckload of them.

informed or not, his comparisons don't really pass muster. you don't know what kind of specs their video codec is capable of. and a server case full of GTX 280's running in parallel is a ridiculously powerful machine. the only real limitation i see is lag. hardware is easy, and when you start talking the numbers you have been (or the eurogamer estimates), investors will give them money to buy more hardware. hardware isn't an issue.

it's just way too early to make any actual educated speculations. if this project were so obviously going to fail, i don't think it would have come this far. the ONLY thing i can think of that had hype like this and failed was the Phantom.

Panzer88 · Post by **Panzer88** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:31 am

gllt wrote:Yeah I'm totally ready for the earth to explode now.
That, or if this makes it to reality, everything related to it burns to hell and back.

Just no. Please, God no.

so you think if it DOES work as they say it does that it will dominate? I think even if it does work it won't be perfect, and many people will still like the old tried and true, I don't think the world will change that dramatically but I'll prolly try it out so I can play stuff that is better than my current PC can handle.

Joe Camacho · Post by **Joe Camacho** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:36 am

Phantom Phantom lol?

I.S.T. · Post by **I.S.T.** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:52 am

sweener2001 wrote:
I.S.T. wrote:
sweener2001 wrote:
creaothceann wrote:
Panzer88 wrote:they say they can accomplish it over the internet via their amazing new video compression.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/gdc-w ... rk-article
the article seems a little uninformed, or the opinion was formed too fast.

there are no specs on onlive's video encoding, so using a current and publicly available codec can't even necessarily give a ballpark estimate. eurogamer's servers probably don't compare to what onlive will have.

does anyone know what one of those tesla super computers is actually capable of? i actually don't.

i understand each of the concerns, and gizmodo has a more in depth playthough experience posted. but making these comparisons to things that are probably nothing like onlive's setup doesn't fly.

i actually hope the service works. whether i jump right in is another thing completely.
That guy is informed as hell, actually. Look up his posts at www.beyond3d.com 's forum. His name is grandmaster.

And a Tesla is basically a GeForce GTX 280. Yes, I'm not kidding.There's been a lot of research into using graphics cards/chips for normal computations lately(The reason why is the raw computational power of a graphics chip is usually higher than any consumer CPU. The problem is they are too specialized.). A tesla supercomputer basically just has a fuckload of them.
informed or not, his comparisons don't really pass muster. you don't know what kind of specs their video codec is capable of. and a server case full of GTX 280's running in parallel is a ridiculously powerful machine. the only real limitation i see is lag. hardware is easy, and when you start talking the numbers you have been (or the eurogamer estimates), investors will give them money to buy more hardware. hardware isn't an issue.

it's just way too early to make any actual educated speculations. if this project were so obviously going to fail, i don't think it would have come this far. the ONLY thing i can think of that had hype like this and failed was the Phantom.

You forget bandwidth.

FWIW, I think what this is gonna pan out ot be is a local way to stream video, like say from your console to your laptop.

Panzer88 · Post by **Panzer88** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:55 am

well what is their promise again? 5mbit/sec for 720p 1.5 for 480p or something like that?

that's a pretty big claim, we shall see but I am intrigued none the less.

sweener2001 · Post by **sweener2001** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:21 pm

I.S.T. wrote: You forget bandwidth.

FWIW, I think what this is gonna pan out ot be is a local way to stream video, like say from your console to your laptop.

i thought bandwidth was included in lag, as it's bandwidth issues that cause it

gllt · Post by **gllt** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:56 pm

Panzer88 wrote:
gllt wrote:Yeah I'm totally ready for the earth to explode now.
That, or if this makes it to reality, everything related to it burns to hell and back.

Just no. Please, God no.
so you think if it DOES work as they say it does that it will dominate? I think even if it does work it won't be perfect, and many people will still like the old tried and true, I don't think the world will change that dramatically but I'll prolly try it out so I can play stuff that is better than my current PC can handle.

I think if it comes out I'm going to slaughter myself in a Wal*Mart

no more dumb electronics for people to tell me they want and why its cool and why the hate it and why theirs does not work and why cant I put vista on it

leave me alone nnn

im going to live in the woods and start a farm
theres no grandpeople with computer problems on my farm

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:16 pm

Computer problems will still exist even if it does succeed, well at least for the cheapest plans they offer.

gllt · Post by **gllt** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:24 pm

franpa wrote:Computer problems will still exist even if it does succeed, well at least for the cheapest plans they offer.

Well duh
I just don't want this one too

edit; wuhwuoh delete this plz it feels wrong now that I realized what was said :V

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:23 am

sweener2001 wrote:
I.S.T. wrote: You forget bandwidth.

FWIW, I think what this is gonna pan out ot be is a local way to stream video, like say from your console to your laptop.
i thought bandwidth was included in lag, as it's bandwidth issues that cause it

Some lag is. More is caused by raw "ping time"

Pop up a command promot and type tracert www.wtfever.com
If you have a site you're having trouble connecting to, use it. you might be surprised to see the machine causing problems isn't the one that's hosting the site.

IP does not guarantee timely delivery, or even that a packet WILL be delivered. Nor does it guarantee that packets will arrive in the order they are sent.

Dropped packets, late packets, and out-of-order packets have been the bane of netplay games since they first started using the internet instead of LANs or direct connections.

I believe it is fairly obvious why no one will be direct-connecting to OnLive. Therefore, lag WILL be a problem that requires dealing with.
Fortunately, there are many many techniques that have been developed to compensate for the internet's failings as a gaming network. Unfortunately, none of them are perfect.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:13 am

Gil_Hamilton wrote:Dropped packets, late packets, and out-of-order packets have been the bane of netplay games since they first started using the internet instead of LANs or direct connections.

I thought UDP was to blame for all that and that UDP was used as it was faster then TCP because it didnt verify things and stuff?

Gil_Hamilton · Post by **Gil_Hamilton** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:31 pm

franpa wrote:
Gil_Hamilton wrote:Dropped packets, late packets, and out-of-order packets have been the bane of netplay games since they first started using the internet instead of LANs or direct connections.
I thought UDP was to blame for all that and that UDP was used as it was faster then TCP because it didnt verify things and stuff?

UDP amplifies it, since it lacks many of the niceties of TCP(which makes it easier to write/less processor-intensive to use).
UDP ignores the limitations of IP, while TCP attempts to compensate for them.

Either way, it's delivered via IP, which causes issues.
A dropped packet is IP's fault. The handling of it varies with TCP and UDP. TCP requests a resend. UDP shrugs and moves on.

The validity of a resend for an action game is debatable, since it amplifies the existing ping lag even worse. And there's probably ALREADY a new packet coming down the line, since the game does not pause while waiting for acknowledgment that the packet was received.

So requesting a resend for a lost/corrupted packet is not as good an idea as it seems. It's probably better to forget about it, move on, and guess what happened by the state of the next packet. Unless a LOT of packets are being dropped

In short: Internet gaming is magic voodoo.

sweener2001 · Post by **sweener2001** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:05 am

it's dispensed knowledge like this that kept me coming here

gllt · Post by **gllt** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:16 am

sweener2001 wrote:it's dispensed knowledge like this that kept me coming here

i kept coming here for people like you who stayed for the dispensed knowledge

I.S.T. · Post by **I.S.T.** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:48 am

sweener2001 wrote:it's dispensed knowledge like this that kept me coming here

No fucking kidding.

That and grinvader.

h4tred · Post by **h4tred** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:54 pm

I.S.T wrote:A tesla supercomputer basically just has a fuckload of them.

And if that is so, then IIRC CUDA/some GPGPU language would be needed to harness them....

Which means the plan is even more doomed from the start, since games do not use CUDA.

sweener2001 · Post by **sweener2001** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:47 am

that assumes they even tesla's

I.S.T. · Post by **I.S.T.** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:05 am

h4tred wrote:
I.S.T wrote:A tesla supercomputer basically just has a fuckload of them.
And if that is so, then IIRC CUDA/some GPGPU language would be needed to harness them.... Which means the plan is even more doomed from the start, since games do not use CUDA.

Yup. WHat they would do in that case would be to come up with a translating program, I guess. Have the program translate all of the calls and whatnot into CUDA/Open CL/whatever into data/whatever the Telsa's can understand/use.

God, I'm braindead and having trouble putting my thoughts into words tonight.

h4tred · Post by **h4tred** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:33 am

Have the program translate all of the calls and whatnot into CUDA/Open CL/whatever into data/whatever the Telsa's can understand/use.

Hah. Good luck.

I.S.T. · Post by **I.S.T.** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:58 am

It's possible, I'm sure.

But it's not a good idea. It'd be slow as fuck, buggy as hell and generally a waste of time.

Panzer88 · Post by **Panzer88** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:30 am

h4tred wrote:
I.S.T wrote:A tesla supercomputer basically just has a fuckload of them.
And if that is so, then IIRC CUDA/some GPGPU language would be needed to harness them.... Which means the plan is even more doomed from the start, since games do not use CUDA.

if you watched their presentations they already said games using the unreal engine can run on On Live so that makes me doubt they are using teslas.