bad graphics quality on real snes

[duffjr]

why are the graphics so good in zsnes, but everything's fuzzy with the tv? is the default setting of zsnes achievable with the snes? also, is there an optimal hue/saturation/brightness on the tv to match zsnes, or do i need rgb cables?





the snes image is twice as big as the zsnes.

[kevman]

Uh, well... This is mainy due to TV design. A good TV won't be as fuzzy. Keep in mind, though, that the resolution displayed to you is the same both ways, but with a computer it is just filtered better.

TV is a far older standard than monitors. They have more of a tendency to blur stuff and can't display as high a resolution (Though they can show the Snes's just fine)

Its a matter of preference, really.

[Agozer]

This has been discussed multiple time on the board before, I just fear that the threads are gone thanks to the recent sweep.

I think it has something to do with how TV stretches the image differently, and how the aspect ratio isn't exactly the same on TV than on a monitor's screen

[Jikmo]

also, it might be the game, i believe the graphics in mario kart can benefit from higher resolutions

[Reznor007]

This has been discussed multiple time on the board before, I just fear that the threads are gone thanks to the recent sweep.

I think it has something to do with how TV stretches the image differently, and how the aspect ratio isn't exactly the same on TV than on a monitor's screen

TV's and monitors work in basically the same way. They both convert all inputs to 4:3 ratio in an analog way. The main difference is that PC monitors are progressive scan(TV's are interlaced), and use higher resolutions.

A real SNES is connected via analog video, so the quality is worse than ZSNES on that aspect alone. RF is horrible, composite is only a little better than that, and Svideo is a nice step up. A few people use RGB on SNES which is the best you can get, but even then it is *slightly* worse than ZSNES. Personally I use Svideo for all my consoles(except NES) because my TV card maxes out at Svideo. Luckily my receiver will upconvert the NES composite to Svideo for convenience

You may also want to calibrate your TV using a DVD that has the THX Optimode setup feature(any Star Wars, Toy Story, and many others).

[Gil_Hamilton]

This has been discussed multiple time on the board before, I just fear that the threads are gone thanks to the recent sweep.

I think it has something to do with how TV stretches the image differently, and how the aspect ratio isn't exactly the same on TV than on a monitor's screen

TV's and monitors work in basically the same way. They both convert all inputs to 4:3 ratio in an analog way. The main difference is that PC monitors are progressive scan(TV's are interlaced), and use higher resolutions.

ZSNES doesn't feed a monitor the 512*448 image, either. It converts the image to 4:3 digitally.

A real SNES is connected via analog video, so the quality is worse than ZSNES on that aspect alone.

Debatable. There's a digital resampling phase added that generates artifacts in ZSNES, but on the other hand the only analog run is a well-shielded VGA cable. Which is RGB.

[duffjr]

thanks for all the info. my snes is run through a tvbox with s-video. as you see, the vertical lines are visible, but better than any av. i'll try the dvd optimization. i'll buy a graphics card with rgb support in about a year. does anyone have screens of what snes games look like with rgb?

[Mark7]

I think the biggest problem is that a real snes will send out an interlaced image while zsnes displays a progressive image.

[byuu]

TV's and monitors work in basically the same way. They both convert all inputs to 4:3 ratio in an analog way. The main difference is that PC monitors are progressive scan(TV's are interlaced), and use higher resolutions.

ZSNES doesn't feed a monitor the 512*448 image, either. It converts the image to 4:3 digitally.

Monitors aren't forced to use 4:3.
The internal SNES resolution is 512x448. This is stretched to 4:3 on your TV. This aspect ratio doesn't exist on monitors. The pixels are square (at least, they can be), but 512x448 is not a 4:3 ratio. It is 8:7.
Monitors can do 1280x960 and othe resolutions that are not 4:3, as well.

Debatable. There's a digital resampling phase added that generates artifacts in ZSNES, but on the other hand the only analog run is a well-shielded VGA cable. Which is RGB.

ZSNES does not generate artifacts via digital resampling. The image data is already digital. The tail end of the PPU, or a chip after its output, converts it to analog data, which does create artifacts.
You may be thinking of NES color resampling, which has to be converted between YIQ/RGB.

TV's and monitors work in basically the same way. They both convert all inputs to 4:3 ratio in an analog way. The main difference is that PC monitors are progressive scan(TV's are interlaced), and use higher resolutions.

Most modes on the SNES are progressive scan as well. Interlace scan is an optional setting that hi-res games use. Monitors can use interlace scan as well, but yes. Emulators (at least zsnes/snes9x) render all scanlines every visible frame, instead of alternating them every frame. Which is probably a good thing.

Uh, well... This is mainy due to TV design. A good TV won't be as fuzzy.

Correct. But the fuzz will always be there. On a TV, there is far more color bleeding. If you look really closely at a large TV, you can actually see the colors bleed out onto other pixels near their edges. This effect is greatly diminished with monitors. It is most evident on sharp color edges.
Example:

I doubt flatpanel/LCD users will notice this as much as CRT users.
Notice how in the blue box, there appears to be an extra black line on the right, and in the red box, there appears to be an extra black line on the left. Green looks normal because it's in the center of the pixel beam on both sides. Zoom in and you'll see they're all the same. It's because there is not 1 pixel per color, there are 3 light rays (r, g, b) for each color. Same as a TV (a TV usually converts the analog signal from YIQ to RGB internally, applying hue/saturation/tone/contrast/etc. before the conversion), but on a TV, they have a tendency to cross over into other pixels.
A white pixel on a black background will have blue fade on the left, and red fade on the right.

[Gil_Hamilton]

TV's and monitors work in basically the same way. They both convert all inputs to 4:3 ratio in an analog way. The main difference is that PC monitors are progressive scan(TV's are interlaced), and use higher resolutions.

ZSNES doesn't feed a monitor the 512*448 image, either. It converts the image to 4:3 digitally.

Monitors aren't forced to use 4:3.
The internal SNES resolution is 512x448. This is stretched to 4:3 on your TV. This aspect ratio doesn't exist on monitors. The pixels are square (at least, they can be), but 512x448 is not a 4:3 ratio. It is 8:7.
Monitors can do 1280x960 and othe resolutions that are not 4:3, as well.

512*448 isn't 4:3, but as far as SNES software is concerned, it is intended to be displayed as such(rectangular pixels are nothing particularly odd, and in fact go back all the way to the 2600). But ZSNES won't output a 512*448 image.

Debatable. There's a digital resampling phase added that generates artifacts in ZSNES, but on the other hand the only analog run is a well-shielded VGA cable. Which is RGB.

ZSNES does not generate artifacts via digital resampling. The image data is already digital. The tail end of the PPU, or a chip after its output, converts it to analog data, which does create artifacts.
You may be thinking of NES color resampling, which has to be converted between YIQ/RGB.

No. I'm thinking of the extra "half-pixels" that are generated to get the image to 4:3 digitally.
Or alternately, the incorrect aspect ratio of an unstretched image. Your choice.

[byuu]

ZSNES' default setting is for 512x448. There are options to stretch it to 640x480 to get the correct aspect ratio. But by default, running at 640x480 will just give a black border around the image.

[Gil_Hamilton]

ZSNES' default setting is for 512x448. There are options to stretch it to 640x480 to get the correct aspect ratio. But by default, running at 640x480 will just give a black border around the image.

Right.
The stretch to 640*480 generates artifacts. Not stretching it gives you a wonky aspect ratio.

[Reznor007]

Monitors aren't forced to use 4:3.
The internal SNES resolution is 512x448. This is stretched to 4:3 on your TV. This aspect ratio doesn't exist on monitors. The pixels are square (at least, they can be), but 512x448 is not a 4:3 ratio. It is 8:7.
Monitors can do 1280x960 and othe resolutions that are not 4:3, as well.

Resolution has nothiong to do with aspect ratio however. Look at DVD, which has a resolution of 720x480. It is neither 4:3 or 16:9, yet it is intended to be viewed on one or the other. The arcade game Battletoads has a resolution of 512x224, which is WAY off from 4:3, yet it is intended for a 4:3 monitor.

Even the examples of PC monitors using 1280x1024, while being 5:4 internally, they are still showing a 4:3 image(the CRT is shaped that way afterall). 1280x960 is a 4:3 res by the way This is why when using 1280x1024 on a standard CRT in windows makes things look *slightly* squished.

[JFD62780]

ZSNES' default setting is for 512x448. There are options to stretch it to 640x480 to get the correct aspect ratio. But by default, running at 640x480 will just give a black border around the image.

Have you by any chance seen the top picture with the borders? That coincidentally came from an actual SNES. Trust me, 640x480 is as accurate as you're gonna get!

[byuu]

Even the examples of PC monitors using 1280x1024, while being 5:4 internally, they are still showing a 4:3 image

I was referring to pixel sizes, not display sizes. There are also 16:9 monitors and such in the sense of screen sizes.

Resolution has nothiong to do with aspect ratio however. Look at DVD, which has a resolution of 720x480. It is neither 4:3 or 16:9, yet it is intended to be viewed on one or the other.

It is resized by the video card/player, yes.

[duffjr]

my monitor is an lcd if it matters. interesting stuff you guys got going here. anyone have pics taken with an rgb connection?