ZSNES and SMW hacking

[snkcube]

It's quite pointless to compare the current version of ZSNES to Snes9x. We KNOW ZSNES' sound can't compare (for now).

[nintendo_nerd]

It's quite pointless to compare the current version of ZSNES to Snes9x. We KNOW ZSNES' sound can't compare (for now).

What I was trying to do (albeit asininely) was bring the whole Zsnes-is-the-most-godlike-emulator-in-existence mentality so many users seem to have. I liken it to IE6 and the attachment rate that seems to have for no reason. My point is, there are better emulators out, but people are either too complacent or simply refuse to care enough to want to switch to something better. At least Zsnes has the new sound core implemented.

[Gil_Hamilton]

It's quite pointless to compare the current version of ZSNES to Snes9x. We KNOW ZSNES' sound can't compare (for now).

What I was trying to do (albeit asininely) was bring the whole Zsnes-is-the-most-godlike-emulator-in-existence mentality so many users seem to have. I liken it to IE6 and the attachment rate that seems to have for no reason. My point is, there are better emulators out, but people are either too complacent or simply refuse to care enough to want to switch to something better. At least Zsnes has the new sound core implemented.

I thought you were trying to say that Sonic was actually Mario in disguise.

[adventure_of_link]

It's quite pointless to compare the current version of ZSNES to Snes9x. We KNOW ZSNES' sound can't compare (for now).

What I was trying to do (albeit asininely) was bring the whole Zsnes-is-the-most-godlike-emulator-in-existence mentality so many users seem to have. I liken it to IE6 and the attachment rate that seems to have for no reason. My point is, there are better emulators out, but people are either too complacent or simply refuse to care enough to want to switch to something better. At least Zsnes has the new sound core implemented.

I thought you were trying to say that Sonic was actually Mario in disguise.

and what happened to begging his leave?

[sh4rdik]

Hello,
First time poster, long time zsnes user.

I was just wondering, why is it important that an emulator mod or hack have anything to do with the original snes hardware?

For example, I think it would be cool to modify zsnes to save on a different savestate every time i press f2.
As far as I know this is not a feature in the stock zsnes emulator, so I looked into zsnes hacks for the first time ever and I was led here.

What I found seemed to be an unreasonable disdain for those who modify zsnes the 'wrong way.'
If being as close as possible to the original is your thing than cool, but I see no possible reason why modding emulators to run roms in weird ways is bad.

can anyone enlighten me on this?

[grinvader]

For example, I think it would be cool to modify zsnes to save on a different savestate every time i press f2.
As far as I know this is not a feature in the stock zsnes emulator, so I looked into zsnes hacks for the first time ever and I was led here.

Long-time users usually know about Config > Saves > Auto increment save slot.

can anyone enlighten me on this?

You're not following the thread's topic. This isn't about modifying zsnes. This is about modifying games in a way that makes them work only with current zsnes' faulty emulation. This is silly, because when zsnes finally catches up with accurate behaviour (eventually...), those romhacks won't work anymore - they will require the old zsnes versions.

[sh4rdik]

Long-time users usually know about Config > Saves > Auto increment save slot.

Thanks for the quick reply!
While i am a long-time user I am not a power user.
Indeed i did not see that option, much thanks!

You're not following the thread's topic. This isn't about modifying zsnes. This is about modifying games in a way that makes them work only with current zsnes' faulty emulation. This is silly, because when zsnes finally catches up with accurate behaviour (eventually...), those romhacks won't work anymore - they will require the old zsnes versions.

What I was responding to though was the overall sentiment of disdain towards those types of hacks and hackers.
Why is it wrong or looked down upon to run roms which take advantage of the dissimilarities between zsnes and a real snes?

Why is it important to make an emulator run just like the real thing if it already looks and acts the same?
I appreciate and indeed benefit from your passion for emulating, I simply ask as a non-aggressive newcomer.

Grinvader, did you create zsnes?
I like it's UI more than any other emulator ever.
Once on Christmas santa rode by on a sleigh through the 'snow' background. nice touch.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Why is it wrong or looked down upon to run roms which take advantage of the dissimilarities between zsnes and a real snes?

Well, for starters because they will only ever work with one specific version of zsnes.
Also, they cease to be Super Nintendo games at that point, so why not just make a PC game anyways?

Why is it important to make an emulator run just like the real thing if it already looks and acts the same?

Because zsnes doesn't look and act the same, and almost kinda-sorta good enough isn't good enough.

Especially when this may be people's first exposure to the games, so they may learn the erroneous behavior as correct, leading to the inevitable bug reports about Zelda's intro running wrong, or Star Fox being way too slow, or Bomberman being kinda prone to slowdown when they are later exposed to CORRECT behavior.

To say nothing of those poor souls playing a more obscure title that has been glitched for YEARS, but no one cares because it's not one of the big names.

[sh4rdik]

Well, for starters because they will only ever work with one specific version of zsnes.
Also, they cease to be Super Nintendo games at that point, so why not just make a PC game anyways?

So, could there never be a scenario during the creation of a zsnes update where one has to choose between breaking a rom hack and providing a more accurate experience?
I was going to ask which would take precedent but I imagine they are actually mutually exclusive.

Especially when this may be people's first exposure to the games, so they may learn the erroneous behavior as correct, leading to the inevitable bug reports about Zelda's intro running wrong, or Star Fox being way too slow, or Bomberman being kinda prone to slowdown when they are later exposed to CORRECT behavior.

I am confused if you are saying the bug reports are going to Nintendo or to here.
If it's to Nintendo I can see how that would make the emu community look bad.

How am I on Earthbound, pretty accurate?
It was all weird until I threw on triple buffering.

I have considered running a hacked uncensored version but the .smc won't play nice with zsnes.

>For some reason, because of how long it has been in my life or because of the low-tech customizable user interface,
I have loyalty to zsnes over snes9x not dissimilar to my loyalty to Nintendo over Sega.
Sadly I cannot donate loyalty via Paypal to get 2.0 underway.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Well, for starters because they will only ever work with one specific version of zsnes.
Also, they cease to be Super Nintendo games at that point, so why not just make a PC game anyways?

So, could there never be a scenario during the creation of a zsnes update where one has to choose between breaking a rom hack and providing a more accurate experience?
I was going to ask which would take precedent but I imagine they are actually mutually exclusive.

It could, and it's already happened. The most visible thing I can think of is VRAM writes outside of VBlank.

The real Super Nintendo disallows VRAM writes outside of VBlank. Currently, ZSNES is the only major emulator that still allows it.

And real Super Nintendo behavior always trumps glitchy homebrew. Because that's what you call it when your Super Nintendo game doesn't work right on a real Super Nintendo. Glitchy.

Especially when this may be people's first exposure to the games, so they may learn the erroneous behavior as correct, leading to the inevitable bug reports about Zelda's intro running wrong, or Star Fox being way too slow, or Bomberman being kinda prone to slowdown when they are later exposed to CORRECT behavior.

I am confused if you are saying the bug reports are going to Nintendo or to here.
If it's to Nintendo I can see how that would make the emu community look bad.

Here in Starfox's case, as the emulation was corrected so the game ran at the right speed(and a bug report was promptly filed).
Other emulator authors in the case of Zelda and Bomberman.

How am I on Earthbound, pretty accurate?

Don't know, don't care, the game is terrible.

I have loyalty to zsnes over snes9x not dissimilar to my loyalty to Nintendo over Sega.

That's all well and good, but... you're choosing to back the three-legged horse in the race, and that's never a good bet.

Also, Sega was a damn fine company before they went software-only. I say this despite my allegiances during the Great War.

[grinvader]

Why is it important to make an emulator run just like the real thing if it already looks and acts the same?

As mentioned, it doesn't. Not enough, at least, and reaching an acceptable accuracy will prevent these hacks from working correctly.
There will come a time when these old zsnes versions don't run natively at all on any modern platform - you will need a virtual machine to run the old zsnes just to run the hack... They'll be pretty much lost until someone recodes them properly (hint: that won't happen).
If the hack is actually entertaining, that's quality down the drain. To prevent that, current romhackers have to stop relying on zsnes' faults and make proper lasting work.

Grinvader, did you create zsnes?

As the about box would tell you, I didn't.

I like it's UI more than any other emulator ever.
Once on Christmas santa rode by on a sleigh through the 'snow' background. nice touch.

Yeah, that's one of the flavours that made it popular.

[sh4rdik]

Why is it important to make an emulator run just like the real thing if it already looks and acts the same?

As mentioned, it doesn't. Not enough, at least, and reaching an acceptable accuracy will prevent these hacks from working correctly.
There will come a time when these old zsnes versions don't run natively at all on any modern platform - you will need a virtual machine to run the old zsnes just to run the hack... They'll be pretty much lost until someone recodes them properly (hint: that won't happen).
If the hack is actually entertaining, that's quality down the drain. To prevent that, current romhackers have to stop relying on zsnes' faults and make proper lasting work.

Oh, so it is a matter of posterity.
That makes sense.
Logically, should all hacks based on faulty emulation be accomplishable the "right" way?

Grinvader, did you create zsnes?

As the about box would tell you, I didn't.

I ask because early on in this thread you seemed to imply involvement with the 2.0 update project.
By the way I am on-board to alpha anything anyone's got.

How am I on Earthbound, pretty accurate?

Don't know, don't care, the game is terrible.

Two words: Blues Brothers.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Two words: Blues Brothers.

A fine movie.

[franpa]

Grinvader, did you create zsnes?

As the about box would tell you, I didn't.

I ask because early on in this thread you seemed to imply involvement with the 2.0 update project.

1) He is not the creator of ZSNES, but he is a current developer of the project.
2) As far as I know, there is no public alpha testing (There used to be via Ipher's WIP site...).

[Mark57Raider]

I have to give a big shout out to the zsnes teams for making such an awesome emulator.
And I also have to give a big shoutout to snes9x for making an awesome emulator as well.
And I have to give a big shoutout to byuu for making an...aaa...okay emulator bsnes as well... sorry...
There were just a lot of graphical bugs and text bugs in translated games that I just could not play.

I played front mission on snes9x as well and I had some blurred text before I got to battle as Sakata was talking. When I loaded the same game in zsnes, I recognized the Sakata had finished all of the sentences that he was saying before the strategic battle commenced.

I'm sorry nintendo_nerd, but zsnes is quite possibly the best super nintendo emulator to date *heh*. I mean it has a zmv feature, godly netplay, the sounds really don't matter cause we all don't like the same music. Anyways you get the idea. It's just zsnes has a lot of features and plays better than bsnes. There's some great things about snes9k too and I think there's also some things for the snes9k that are better than the zsnes. I prefer using both . You've all worked hard making such great software... Good work guys! I know that I'm thankful.

[Gil_Hamilton]

And I have to give a big shoutout to byuu for making an...aaa...okay emulator bsnes as well... sorry...
There were just a lot of graphical bugs and text bugs in translated games that I just could not play.

To be fair, though, that's not byuu's fault. You'll see those issues playing those hacks on a real Super Nintendo as well.

And, well, that's one of the problems with inaccurate emulators. There's a lot of stuff out there that claims to be Super Nintendo software, but is actually ZSNES software, because the hacks were never tested against a real system and exploit the hell out of emulation bugs.

[blackmyst]

And I have to give a big shoutout to byuu for making an...aaa...okay emulator bsnes as well... sorry...
There were just a lot of graphical bugs and text bugs in translated games that I just could not play.

LOL, seriously? You might as well bash the actual SNES for being an "okay snes game player...sorry" because all those issues in hacks and translations are going to show up on real hardware. It's the game hacks you play that are bad, not the emulator.

[Mark57Raider]

And I have to give a big shoutout to byuu for making an...aaa...okay emulator bsnes as well... sorry...
There were just a lot of graphical bugs and text bugs in translated games that I just could not play.

LOL, seriously? You might as well bash the actual SNES for being an "okay snes game player...sorry" because all those issues in hacks and translations are going to show up on real hardware. It's the game hacks you play that are bad, not the emulator.

Okay, take for granted Bahamut Lagoon. I tried playing Bahamut Lagoon on bsnes and it showed some graphical text errors when I was taking a look at the inventory. Some of the text in the inventory was displayed in japanese while others were in english. I noticed this happened in Front Mission as well. So the differences in the coding of zsnes, bsnes and snes9x is possibly quite different. I'm not bashing anyone's emulator as I support it all, but if the same hack is bad, then I guess zsnes has been compiled and programmed better than the other two. Either that or surpassed the capabilities of hardware snes or bsnes for that matter.

Also on the record I find that bsnes even being more accurate to a real snes. I found the frame rates for games to be a little slower than zsnes. I'm not trying to pick sides, but zsnes has won due to the simple gui and abilities you are able to use in the emulator.

[blackmyst]

but if the same hack is bad, then I guess zsnes has been compiled and programmed better than the other two. Either that or surpassed the capabilities of hardware snes or bsnes for that matter.

Oh jesus. Alright, you're clearly very confused.

It's like this: imagine if someone had a broken 10-year-old PC that had all sorts of weird errors. But they wanted to play a game on it anyway, so they hacked a game to work on that PC, and they hacked it specifically to get around all the issues that PC had. And finally after a lot of effort, they got it to run very well!

Now someone else took a copy of that program and decided to try it on a different, brand-new PC. Result: the game barely starts up, and it's full of glitches to the point of being unplayable, because of all the hacks.

If someone would say the old PC is superior to the new one, just because it ran this game better than the new PC did, would you agree with that?

I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

[Gil_Hamilton]

And I have to give a big shoutout to byuu for making an...aaa...okay emulator bsnes as well... sorry...
There were just a lot of graphical bugs and text bugs in translated games that I just could not play.

LOL, seriously? You might as well bash the actual SNES for being an "okay snes game player...sorry" because all those issues in hacks and translations are going to show up on real hardware. It's the game hacks you play that are bad, not the emulator.

Okay, take for granted Bahamut Lagoon. I tried playing Bahamut Lagoon on bsnes and it showed some graphical text errors when I was taking a look at the inventory. Some of the text in the inventory was displayed in japanese while others were in english. I noticed this happened in Front Mission as well. So the differences in the coding of zsnes, bsnes and snes9x is possibly quite different. I'm not bashing anyone's emulator as I support it all, but if the same hack is bad, then I guess zsnes has been compiled and programmed better than the other two. Either that or surpassed the capabilities of hardware snes or bsnes for that matter.

Also on the record I find that bsnes even being more accurate to a real snes. I found the frame rates for games to be a little slower than zsnes. I'm not trying to pick sides, but zsnes has won due to the simple gui and abilities you are able to use in the emulator.

Bahumat Lagoon is an interesting example, as thete's two versions of the patch from the same release, an emulator version and a copier version. The emulator version exploits glitches in then-current emulators. The copier version hacks the hack to work on a real Super Nintendo, and I'm told the experience is less than fulfilling.

This isn't even a case of not knowing it wouldn't work, it's a case of knowing and doing it anyways.

[Agozer]

I ran into an interesting problem a few days back when I decided to give Bahamut Lagoon a ago. Apparently, much of the SNES rom image library has been redumped (or something to that effect, don't really ask me), because the Bahamut Lagoon translation patch no longer worked with a "new" SFC rom image. Had to dig up my old BL rom image from my own archives to make it work.

[Mark57Raider]

but if the same hack is bad, then I guess zsnes has been compiled and programmed better than the other two. Either that or surpassed the capabilities of hardware snes or bsnes for that matter.

Oh jesus. Alright, you're clearly very confused.

It's like this: imagine if someone had a broken 10-year-old PC that had all sorts of weird errors. But they wanted to play a game on it anyway, so they hacked a game to work on that PC, and they hacked it specifically to get around all the issues that PC had. And finally after a lot of effort, they got it to run very well!

Now someone else took a copy of that program and decided to try it on a different, brand-new PC. Result: the game barely starts up, and it's full of glitches to the point of being unplayable, because of all the hacks.

If someone would say the old PC is superior to the new one, just because it ran this game better than the new PC did, would you agree with that?

I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

So the Bahamut Lagoon rom is programmed to somehow fix the capabilities of the current emulation software plus the capabilities of the translation as well I presume. Being that bsnes is accurate, I'm guessing that the translators had to implement some programming with the emulation being used to make up for the "broken software" and then using a translation patch to spruce everything up. That's pretty much where I'm getting with this lol.

[Mark57Raider]

I ran into an interesting problem a few days back when I decided to give Bahamut Lagoon a ago. Apparently, much of the SNES rom image library has been redumped (or something to that effect, don't really ask me), because the Bahamut Lagoon translation patch no longer worked with a "new" SFC rom image. Had to dig up my old BL rom image from my own archives to make it work.

Maybe the patch doesn't work with the new SFC image because the SFC image isn't compatible. That could be a possibility. And then being Dejap.... That was from back in 2003, so something had to have changed within the image.

[Gil_Hamilton]

So the Bahamut Lagoon rom is programmed to somehow fix the capabilities of the current emulation software plus the capabilities of the translation as well I presume. Being that bsnes is accurate, I'm guessing that the translators had to implement some programming with the emulation being used to make up for the "broken software" and then using a translation patch to spruce everything up. That's pretty much where I'm getting with this lol.

What.


The Bahamut Lagoon ROM image is programmed to run japanese Bahamut Lagoon on a real Super Nintendo, as it's a direct copy of the Bahamut Lagoon ROM in the cartridge.

The translation patch is designed to turn it into english, using glitches in emulation to make the job easier.
The copier patch is designed to work around those glitches that the original hack exploits to make the translation playable on a real Super Nintendo, but not as nicely as on an emulator.

The translation programmer didn't do anything to fix broken software. He took advantage of glitches in broken software to turn a working game into broken software. Known glitches, at that.


Typically, the primary glitch is the ability to write VRAM outside of VBlank. A real Super Nintendo won't do this. For a long time, all emulators DID do this. Because no existing software did it(because it wouldn't work), there was no evidence that the Super Nintendo WOULDN'T do it until hackers started making code on emulators that ONLY worked on emulators. And since it didn't actually break anything to LEAVE writes enabled, but WOULD break things to disable it, it was left enabled well after it was known wrong. And thus MORE glitchy code that doesn't work on a Super Nintendo was created, and thus fixing VRAM writes became MORE undesirable because it broke MORE software, and... lather, rinse, repeat.

snes9x finally fixed that one.
But it's actually an OPTIONAL fix. Thankfully it defaults to accurate emulation and the toggle to glitch the emulator is hidden in the config file, and not available in the GUI. But it's still possible to run broken code and get working results, and to code broken code and get working results.





Edited to note the "new ROM" not working with the patch is almost certainly a header issue. DeJap coded against a ROM image with a copier header, and the modern trend is to remove copier headers as they are A. useless and B. not actually a part of the ROM image.

[Mark57Raider]

Okay I'm familiar with the header and headerless options since I've done a lot of patching... But thanks for that tid bit of information. It makes things a little more clearer about the processing of what goes on during a translation or rom patch.