[REQ] More scanline options

[Grahf]

One feature I have *ALWAYS* wanted to see in ZSNES.

The major feature I have always wanted would be more scanline options... Personally 25, 50, etc are not good enough for me. ePSXe has a nice full range of scanline options. I imagine 10 or 15% would be best for me.

Is it possible for the ZSNES team to do this?....or perhaps is there some way to alter the cfg file on my end?

(I have divided this issue from the original thread as that thread became focused on the bug(?) that I experienced)

[Clements]

IMO scanlines are horrible - black lines defacing the screen that looks nothing like a real TV mask. What's wrong with TV-out? Why similate a TV when you can use a real TV which looks better anyway? (I'm assuming you have a TV).

We also have enough scanline options already. You'd have to specify this in a CFG file or command line as you are not going to have 1-100% checkboxes litering the GUI. Also, filter requests are normally not accepted unless you can provide the code yourself.

[blackmyst]

IMO scanlines are horrible - black lines defacing the screen that looks nothing like a real TV mask. What's wrong with TV-out? Why similate a TV when you can use a real TV which looks better anyway? (I'm assuming you have a TV).

Have you ever tried 25% or 50% in combination with interpolation? Without, it looks shite, I agree.

And I also prefer TV-out but I have a rather old PAL TV so it's horrible with 60 Hz games (yes, it does accept PAL60, but my video card doesn't have that option). So 25 or 50% scanlines plus interpolation is the next best thing IMO (while sitting a reasonable distance away from the screen obviously).

That said, I feel that the current scanline options are more than enough.

[Clements]

IMO scanlines are horrible - black lines defacing the screen that looks nothing like a real TV mask. What's wrong with TV-out? Why similate a TV when you can use a real TV which looks better anyway? (I'm assuming you have a TV).

Have you ever tried 25% or 50% in combination with interpolation? Without, it looks shite, I agree.

And I also prefer TV-out but I have a rather old PAL TV so it's horrible with 60 Hz games (yes, it does accept PAL60, but my video card doesn't have that option). So 25 or 50% scanlines plus interpolation is the next best thing IMO (while sitting a reasonable distance away from the screen obviously).

That said, I feel that the current scanline options are more than enough.

Yep. Looks real bad for me. Very blurry (due to the interpolation) and the lines just look wrong. On my TV which I have on right now and is inches from my face, the "scanlines" are vertical and very thin (hard to see unless up close), since the pixels are aligned in vertical lines, but horizonally they are staggered. My vision is 20:20 and very accute.

A bit like this:



The scanlines in ZSNES are horizontal, so it looks really weird and different from my TV. That's why I hate them so much. There was a filter that some guy made to look more like the pattern above and that did look better than scanlines. But I prefer a clean image over any kind of rigid pattern super-imposed over it.

[Grahf]

IMO scanlines are horrible - black lines defacing the screen that looks nothing like a real TV mask. What's wrong with TV-out? Why similate a TV when you can use a real TV which looks better anyway? (I'm assuming you have a TV).

You assume wrong.

I do not have access to a tv to use with my computer, so that is not an option.

Nor would I use a tv anyway; I prefer to play ALL my emulators through my LCD computer monitor as it allows for high res and easy manipulations of colors, also it's just plain convenient; I have multiple emulators installed on my computer, multiple PC games, I use it for many tasks. Sitting at a desk with a computer monitor is the most convenient solution for me personally.

I like scanlines because when I played the old SNES back in the day, I did so on a television screen....and though I'm not willing to use tv-out to a real tv, I would like to reproduce the effect on my monitor (because without that old effect the games just don't look right).

I use scanlines on MAME, ePSXe, and other emulators, and it looks TERRIFIC.
The same effect I'm used to; this is what I remember.

I simply can't reproduce the effect on the ZSNES, and it's a shame.

Of course, I'm not suggesting having a hundred checkboxes, but at least a scanline value that you can input (0-100....0-255, whatever).

You think the scanlines look horrible in ZSNES because they're just too strong.
A more subdued (but still noticable) scanline level, such as 15 or 10 would look excellent I think.

[Clements]

I just got my mother in my room and told her to look at my TV and she said the scanlines were in fact vertical and not horizontal. I also lowered my monitor resolution, and the lines were horizontal i.e going the wrong way. Scanlines at a higher resolution also go in the wrong direction as my ordinary TV does. Therefore, scanlines do not adequately emulate a TV for me. End of Story.

Your TV is far from your PC? Not my problem. I'm just saying that faking the effect of a TV is not better to using a TV. If I wanted TV, I would use a TV and not try to fake it with a bad filter.

Also, I'm looking forward to your code commit.

[Grahf]

Hmmm...

No offense but regardless of what your mother says (and I'm not even looking at a TV to type this), I'm going to put my neck out and say I'm fairly certain television scanlines are in fact horizontal and not vertical.

As far as not having a tv close enough...who said it was a problem? I prefer to use my monitor, I'd just like to use scanlines that's all.

Also, I'm looking forward to your code commit.

I don't know what you mean.

[blackmyst]

Wait wait guys....you ARE using scanlines at either 640x480 or 1280x960 right? I agree they look absolutely horrible otherwise. Just to get that out of the way.

Yep. Looks real bad for me. Very blurry (due to the interpolation) and the lines just look wrong. On my TV which I have on right now and is inches from my face,

You don't play games that way do you? You shouldn't on either a PC screen or a TV screen, SNES games just weren't made for that. At least four feet away I'd say. Seriously, if you see interpolation as "blurry" then you're sitting too close. It's only 256x223 for crying out loud.
K, moving on...

the "scanlines" are vertical and very thin (hard to see unless up close), since the pixels are aligned in vertical lines, but horizonally they are staggered. My vision is 20:20 and very accute.

A bit like this:



The scanlines in ZSNES are horizontal, so it looks really weird and different from my TV. That's why I hate them so much. There was a filter that some guy made to look more like the pattern above and that did look better than scanlines. But I prefer a clean image over any kind of rigid pattern super-imposed over it.

Oh, I know how screens are built. But you mustn't look so close, because you'll "overlook" the scanlines, you have to sit at about middle range. I don't know if it's the SNES itself that does this, or if it's just the way the TV handles low res input (the way you get horizontal scanlines at 640x480 on CRT monitors even though the pixels on those are aligned in the same way you described), or what. These horizontal scanlines are not the actual TV's picture elements. It's different for different TV's though, apparently. On the one in my room it's hard to notice, yet on the one downstairs you can see them clearly.

But anyway, for me it's not so much trying to mimic a TV as it is making a better image. You gotta try to see the colored lines, not the black ones. Instead of aligning the pixels into a square grid it makes lines out of them which just seems to make your brain try to focus on the full picture "behind" the lines, instead of seeing the individual pixels. Also, it does a nice job of fooling you into seeing a higher vertical resolution.

Nor would I use a tv anyway; I prefer to play ALL my emulators through my LCD computer monitor as it allows for high res

High res? Like I said, you're playing games at 256x223.

[Clements]

Hmmm...

No offense but regardless of what your mother says (and I'm not even looking at a TV to type this), I'm going to put my neck out and say I'm fairly certain television scanlines are in fact horizontal and not vertical.

Then perhaps your TV is somehow different. I have no idea what a NTSC or SECAM or whatever look like, never seen one in my life. I am 100% certain that the dark lines (which the scanline option hopes to copy) on my TV (which is a normal PAL TV) are indeed vertically aligned. The reason I got my mother involved was to prove that it wasn't me seeing things.

As far as not having a tv close enough...who said it was a problem? I prefer to use my monitor, I'd just like to use scanlines that's all.

Fair enough - do what you think looks good to you, but from my point of view, it does not faithfully replicate any of the TVs I own. This is my opinion though (as always just a valid as yours), I trying not to appear to ram it down anyone's throat by choosing my words carefully as I can.

Also, I'm looking forward to your code commit.

I don't know what you mean.

People have come and requested things like this and have been consistantly turned down since they did not provide the developers with source patches or example code. As soon as code is provided, then the feature is considered since then the developers do not have to divert their attentions to a merely cosmetic feature (however good this feature may be considered to improve the visual quality of ZSNES).

I know this since two years ago when I was a n00b and I was pretty ignorant, I requested a cosmetic feature not too dissimilar to your own which was rightly turned down since I did not provide the code for it. I am merely being the bad guy this time around for you. Sorry, but it was either me or someone else.

[Clements]

Wait wait guys....you ARE using scanlines at either 640x480 or 1280x960 right? I agree they look absolutely horrible otherwise. Just to get that out of the way.

Yep. Looks real bad for me. Very blurry (due to the interpolation) and the lines just look wrong. On my TV which I have on right now and is inches from my face,

You don't play games that way do you? You shouldn't on either a PC screen or a TV screen, SNES games just weren't made for that. At least four feet away I'd say. Seriously, if you see interpolation as "blurry" then you're sitting too close. It's only 256x223 for crying out loud.
K, moving on...

the "scanlines" are vertical and very thin (hard to see unless up close), since the pixels are aligned in vertical lines, but horizonally they are staggered. My vision is 20:20 and very accute.

A bit like this:



The scanlines in ZSNES are horizontal, so it looks really weird and different from my TV. That's why I hate them so much. There was a filter that some guy made to look more like the pattern above and that did look better than scanlines. But I prefer a clean image over any kind of rigid pattern super-imposed over it.

Oh, I know how screens are built. But you mustn't look so close, because you'll "overlook" the scanlines, you have to sit at about middle range. I don't know if it's the SNES itself that does this, or if it's just the way the TV handles low res input (the way you get horizontal scanlines at 640x480 on CRT monitors even though the pixels on those are aligned in the same way you described), or what. These are not the actual TV's picture elements. It's different for different TV's though, apparently. On the one in my room it's hard to notice, yet on the one downstairs you can see them clearly.

But anyway, for me it's not so much trying to mimic a TV as it is making a better image. You gotta try to see the colored lines, not the black ones. Instead of aligning the pixels into a square grid it makes lines out of them which just seems to make your brain try to focus on the full picture "behind" the lines, instead of seeing the individual pixels. Also, it does a nice job of fooling you into seeing a higher vertical resolution.

Nor would I use a tv anyway; I prefer to play ALL my emulators through my LCD computer monitor as it allows for high res

High res? Like I said, you're playing games at 256x223.

I understand what you are saying and yes you are right, I am very close to my screens. And yes, as a result, I prefer either non-filtered or a non-interpolating filter being used with no scanlines. If I was further away, I'd probably lose the filter since further away you don't particularly notice them. Works good for me most of the time.

I guess you could say that scanlines do lessen the harshness of the raw pixels with the added lines, but then again I see it that I could use a filter instead and not make the picture darker. Of course you get more artifacts this way (some are particularly annoying) which I have to accept and live with when playing the games.

[Grahf]

Wait wait guys....you ARE using scanlines at either 640x480 or 1280x960 right? I agree they look absolutely horrible otherwise. Just to get that out of the way.

WHAT THE??....he's right!

I'm running it at 1280x960 and the scanlines look excellent.
Thank you mysterious wiseman.

People have come and requested things like this and have been consistantly turned down since they did not provide the developers with source patches or example code. As soon as code is provided, then the feature is considered since then the developers do not have to divert their attentions to a merely cosmetic feature (however good this feature may be considered to improve the visual quality of ZSNES).

I know this since two years ago when I was a n00b and I was pretty ignorant, I requested a cosmetic feature not too dissimilar to your own which was rightly turned down since I did not provide the code for it. I am merely being the bad guy this time around for you. Sorry, but it was either me or someone else.

I'm sorry to hear that....didn't know.
I'm only offering them advice, which I thought they might want. If opinions are like assholes I guess there's nothing I can do about it.

[Clements]

You may be more lucky than I was - if a developer sees this thread and desires a similar feature, you will get your wish and have all the extra options you need.

Snes9x/Visualboy Advance's TV mode has been requested a couple of times by different people and was ignored before as well (which looks better than ZSNES's current implementation) since there was no interest from developers to add it at that time. Someone requested D3D mode to improve scanlines like in the Arcade emulators to improve the quality of the scanlines giving them the same thicknesses and so forth. Again, no interest from the developers and no code was submitted. However, MaxSt made a custom binary of ZSNES with the hq filters and sure enough they were added and perfected since poor pagefault didn't have to add the whole thing himself.

I wouldn't object to this feature if it makes users happier even though I wouldn't personally use it (I use very few of ZSNES's extra features personally other than the video and sound options anyway).

[Reznor007]

TV's actually have scanlines as a grid, not just lines.

MAME/MESS has a very nice effect designed to simulate that. Full source code is available from mame.net . Here is MESS(MAME for consoles) running Super Mario World at 1280x960.

http://members.cox.net/rdawkins1/smw.PNG

[blackmyst]

TV's actually have scanlines as a grid, not just lines.

MAME/MESS has a very nice effect designed to simulate that. Full source code is available from mame.net . Here is MESS(MAME for consoles) running Super Mario World at 1280x960.

http://members.cox.net/rdawkins1/smw.PNG

Needs more blur.

Pixels simply don't look that sharp and square on a TV.

[Guest]

Honestly I find nothing wrong with the currently scanlines,they're perfect.
I use 25% with 800x600 resolution DR full mode.

[Dmog]

I agree scanlines don't exactly replicate the look of a tv display.Of course you can see the difference. Yet I'd say that if you turned scanline25% on (in 640x480 DR) it's closer to a tv image compared with scanlines turned off.

Tv-out still the best option of course

And Clements, aren't you one of the HQ filters whore people? *HE!P Teh FZRo l00ks l!ke crap on mY Zsnes with HQX24!!!!*

[Nightcrawler]

TV's actually have scanlines as a grid, not just lines.

MAME/MESS has a very nice effect designed to simulate that. Full source code is available from mame.net . Here is MESS(MAME for consoles) running Super Mario World at 1280x960.

http://members.cox.net/rdawkins1/smw.PNG

Needs more blur.

Pixels simply don't look that sharp and square on a TV.

They do if you have a good one.. namely some type of an HD digital set.

I have a Sony Trinitron standard analog TV and still the pixels are fairly square/sharp looking.

[blackmyst]

They do if you have a good one.. namely some type of an HD digital set.

I have a Sony Trinitron standard analog TV and still the pixels are fairly square/sharp looking.

Then don't play on a HDTV.

Those things weren't even around in the SNES era. 2D at that resolution was never meant to be played that way. It's supposed to blend into a picture, the pixels are supposed to look like dots, not like stacked boxes. You wonder why people sometimes come in here wondering why the emulator looks so low res compared to what they remember playing? That's why.

The best thing to play a SNES on is a little 12 inch TV or something.

[Clements]

And Clements, aren't you one of the HQ filters whore people? *HE!P Teh FZRo l00ks l!ke crap on mY Zsnes with HQX24!!!!*

You picked a great person to directly insult, pal. I hope you get banned out of your own stupidity one day. Since you joined you have defaced the board with every moronic post you make.

And for the record I don't whore anything. I appreciate the hard work that has gone into making these features, and I do use them in some games. Big fucking whoop. Deal with it and then sod off.

Big credit to both Grahf and Blackmyst for expressing their views and opinions in an intelligent and non-intrusive way however different from my own. They have easily earned my respect, but Dmog, just going around insulting people of differing opinions gets you nowhere.

[Dmog]

And Clements, aren't you one of the HQ filters whore people? *HE!P Teh FZRo l00ks l!ke crap on mY Zsnes with HQX24!!!!*

You picked a great person to directly insult, pal.

Seeing how you got visibly annoyed by that one question I'd say so.

I hope you get banned out of your own stupidity one day.

Whatever you say dumbass. Like your opinion is worth more than jackshit.

Since you joined you have defaced the board with every moronic post you make.

Wrong again. Simply put, your annoyance makes you spill shit for text.

And for the record I don't whore anything.

I didn't mean that in the literal sense of course, though if the hat fits feel free to wear it. I only meant by that "One that simply cannot play without the HQ filters* Chill.

I appreciate the hard work that has gone into making these features, and I do use them in some games.

Allright.

Big fucking whoop. Deal with it and then sod off.

I have no problems dealing with the fact that you use HQ filters.Is cool with me.Again it was a simple question. Deal with THAT bitch and foad. [/argument mode]

[Dmog]

TV's actually have scanlines as a grid, not just lines.

MAME/MESS has a very nice effect designed to simulate that. Full source code is available from mame.net . Here is MESS(MAME for consoles) running Super Mario World at 1280x960.

http://members.cox.net/rdawkins1/smw.PNG

Needs more blur.

Pixels simply don't look that sharp and square on a TV.

Not perfect but I'd say it look pretty damn good imo,certainly years ahead of the scanline effects.

[Jipcy]

I'm very sorry to see the fighting that has resulted in this thread.

I've never seen you become so irritated Clements.

People always have the right to request a feature. Obviously there's no guarantee on any feature, but they might as well throw it out there.

My only other thought is that I hope no one brings personal problems onto this board. Insulting people is so much easier with no faces. Don't let Internet conversations tick you off.

[Clements]

Seriously guys, ignore Dmog, we don't want this one locked.

[Dmog]

I'm very sorry to see the fighting that has resulted in this thread.

I've never seen you become so irritated Clements.

People always have the right to request a feature. Obviously there's no guarantee on any feature, but they might as well throw it out there.

My only other thought is that I hope no one brings personal problems onto this board. Insulting people is so much easier with no faces. Don't let Internet conversations tick you off.

I'd say nothing in this thread (that is, the feature request itself) as resulted in any fighting whatsoever.
Clements perhaps was not familiar with the "whore"/whoring" expression that's being thrown left and right nowadays. Why, people are whorin' the very term itself. [/end lame joke]

[Reznor007]

TV's actually have scanlines as a grid, not just lines.

MAME/MESS has a very nice effect designed to simulate that. Full source code is available from mame.net . Here is MESS(MAME for consoles) running Super Mario World at 1280x960.

http://members.cox.net/rdawkins1/smw.PNG

Needs more blur.

Pixels simply don't look that sharp and square on a TV.

If you have a good TV (not necessarily HD) they do. I work at an arcade and repair monitors all the time and I've seen plenty that are that sharp(and lots that were blurry messes too).

Also, that filter can be combined with a bilinear filter on the game image.

Here's a comparison of that filter with and without bilinear using the arcade version of Dr Mario.

http://members.cox.net/rdawkins1/drmariofilt.PNG with bilinear filter
http://members.cox.net/rdawkins1/drmario.PNG without bilinear filter