* What We All Want *

[badinsults]

Yeah, man, the sound is all messed up. It is near the top of snes games I need to aquire.

[Clements]

SNEeSe is not perfect though, as it does not run Clayfighter (a game that does not use a special chip). Completely locks up before the fight.

[dw817]

Hi Agozer & Saten:

By the way, dw817, I didn’t read all this topic because I was damn bored of all that you could say.

* You write nearly as much as I do in a message.
Leaving complete sentences and phrases shouldn't be considered a handicap.

You said you run 15 other task when you play ZSNES and you’re complaining that it’s not accurate. (…) Ok enough writing, I guess you won’t understand anyway.

* No, running multiple tasks does not affect ZSNES emulation accuracy.
It might affect the speed, but not the accuracy.

I'll go to see which SNES emulator runs Mecarobot Golf correctly and perhaps that might help the ZSNES authors isolate the problem.

*EDIT
SNEShout runs Mecarobot Golf correctly.
Several other emulators crashed (because I'm running WinAMP and the soundcard was in use).

SNES9xW, ZSNES, and apparently SNEShout are one of the few window SNES emulators that don't.
Emulators should check for soundcard in use and either add a 2nd channel of audio (like ZSNESW), not do audio, but certainly not just CRASH.

[Kagerato]

1a. Water still travels too fast.

By what criteria do we judge "too fast"? Be objective. Capture a real-time movie of the effect and publish it on the web.

In all likelihood, there is no bug here. Just a malformed opinion -- the water effect was designed to animate "faster" than the snow effect.

2. No rewind for ZSNES

I seem to recall rewind having a ZSNES feature from days long past.

2a. No frame editor for either version

Elaborate. What is the functionality of the hypothetical "frame editor"? Expand on what it does and perhaps someone can tell you why it does not exist.

3. Audio is the same.

Improve the audio. I believe it was ESNES or NKLSNES that had an option to tremendously enhance the audio with echo and kakalia effect.
I have not heard audio like this anywhere else and it far surpassed the real SNES audio. The difference between MIDI & Mp3.

Improving audio emulation is one goal. Creating audio filters is quite another. Your analogy that applying an audio filter over the original waveform will be akin to changing it from MIDI to MP3 is laughable.

MIDI is the musical instrument digital interface. The reason why MIDI quality is perceived terrible by numerous people is that it is synthesized to produce output. The instruments are not included in any particular MIDI file, so listening to the same song on different systems can result in significantly different output. The quality of the synthesizer is a huge factor, and the popularity of MIDI pretty much died out before excellent, relatively cheap sythesizers were broadly available on the desktop market.

The opposite of synthesized music is called tracked music. The SPC700 processes tracked music, not synthesized music (and no filter of any sort will change that). One of the reasons why ripped SNES tracks (SPCs) compress so well in solid archives is that each song shares a large percentage of data with every other -- including the initialization code and the instrument definitions.

MIDI and SPC are only similar in that both must be converted to an actual waveform before it can be played back. This is true of every single digital music or audio format ever conceived (it is the nature of using digital data to represent sound -- which is in nature a continuous, analog wave).

Some formats are simply more direct than others -- PCM-based formats are representations of the digitized, or sampled, analog waves necessary for playback.

Finally, MP3 is nothing but a compression format -- MPEG Audio, Layer 3. It is probably an understatement to say the format is outdated; it was originally devised in 1987. However, it is still relatively efficient at compressing raw waveforms to a fraction of their original size -- albeit using lossy algorithms.

Now that our terminology is clear -- will you explain why it is that you feel post-processing filters massively improve audio quality? Multiple interpolation engines already exist in the ZSNES sound core -- gaussian, cubic spline, and 8-point. If these are insufficient, it would be wise to explain how and why.

4. No sleep.

5. System lag seems the same.

These two have been grouped together because they're the same issue.

Use newer software or newer hardware. Process priority is not available (or not effective) on Windows 9x, and certainly not on DOS. If one is multitasking 10 to 15 applications at once, it is important to have enough memory and processing power available to handle it. ZSNES uses hardly any CPU time while idle here, and the memory usage is quite acceptable.

5a. Not implemented. Choosing the same or new resolution from VIDEO does fix the screen so it could be automated from DOS.

Without presenting a workable, cross-platform solution, what do you honestly expect to be done about this?

6. Mame 2x scaling not available.

HQ2x is not sufficient?

7. mouse-resizeable window mode not implemented

One reason why ZSNES has a custom GUI in the first place is to ensure that it will operate consistently under all platforms (which initially included DOS and Windows, and later came to include Linux/GNU and any others that support SDL). The proposed solution to this issue alienates DOS from GUI updates.

SNES9x has a resizeable window for Win32. I despise that, because arbitrary scaling makes absolutely no sense to me. Fixed ratio scaling is at the very least, far more orderly.

The other reason why it is despicable? People have come to rely so much on that feature that SNES9x's full screen handling gets very little attention. At last examination, SNES9x full screen works nothing like ZSNES full screen.

8. Still cannot run both stretch and 2xEagle
While you CAN select them, only the STRETCH is activated.
Other filters below are ignored.

Once more, the reasoning here is absent. Why do double scaling? There's no need to "stretch" and then scale again with any of the 2x filters. Set a fullscreen fixed-ratio (R rather than S) mode, then enable the filter.

9. No additional auto-fire configuration is available.

Currently autofire in ZSNES is A-A-A where the button is down, then up, the down again.
It would be nice to have:
A--A--A or whatever delay you want between auto-fire strokes.
Some SNES games cannot rapidly recognize the current AUTOFIRE in ZSNES/ZSNESW

Key combinations can accomplish custom delays. IIRC, it is possible to rapid fire a key-combo by assigning it a button.

What games, anyway? It seems difficult to believe that a game would ignore autofire unless it was intentionally programmed to do that (in which case, don't you deserve what you get?).

Thank you.

You're welcome.

[Clements]

I must say that all the "feature" suggestions in post #1 are either redundant or needless.

[Gil_Hamilton]

3. Audio is the same.

Improve the audio. I believe it was ESNES or NKLSNES that had an option to tremendously enhance the audio with echo and kakalia effect.
I have not heard audio like this anywhere else and it far surpassed the real SNES audio. The difference between MIDI & Mp3.

Improving audio emulation is one goal. Creating audio filters is quite another. Your analogy that applying an audio filter over the original waveform will be akin to changing it from MIDI to MP3 is laughable.

MIDI is the musical instrument digital interface. The reason why MIDI quality is perceived terrible by numerous people is that it is synthesized to produce output. The instruments are not included in any particular MIDI file, so listening to the same song on different systems can result in significantly different output. The quality of the synthesizer is a huge factor, and the popularity of MIDI pretty much died out before excellent, relatively cheap sythesizers were broadly available on the desktop market.

Note that modern MIDI playback is sample-based, not FM synth. And sounds MUCH better all around, with the exception of playing FM synth MIDIs on sample hardware, which usually sucks.

The opposite of synthesized music is called tracked music. The SPC700 processes tracked music, not synthesized music (and no filter of any sort will change that). One of the reasons why ripped SNES tracks (SPCs) compress so well in solid archives is that each song shares a large percentage of data with every other -- including the initialization code and the instrument definitions.

That's what MIDI lacks. There is not currently a way to attach a sample set to a MIDI file to be loaded by the player.
With MIDI having fallen out of favor for the general populace, there likely never will be.

By and large, the people that still use MIDI are professionals and enthusiasts, who generally know what sample set they're supposed to have loaded for a given file(provided it's intended for sample-based playback, as FM synth MIDIs pretty much require you to go buy some legacy hardware).

[creaothceann]

SNEShout runs Mecarobot Golf correctly.
Several other emulators crashed (because I'm running WinAMP and the soundcard was in use).

SNES9xW, ZSNES, and apparently SNEShout are one of the few window SNES emulators that don't.
Emulators should check for soundcard in use and either add a 2nd channel of audio (like ZSNESW), not do audio, but certainly not just CRASH.

Uh... how about stopping Winamp while testing other software?
AFAIK, just "adding a channel" might not be available on older soundcards.

I doubt that the authors of those emulators intended the crashing. Don't "expect" programs to behave according to your standards. Learn about their features and peculiarities instead and use/avoid them.

[dw817]

Morning Kagerato:

By what criteria do we judge "too fast"? Be objective. Capture a real-time movie of the effect and publish it on the web.

In all likelihood, there is no bug here. Just a malformed opinion -- the water effect was designed to animate "faster" than the snow effect.

* I shouldn't have to do that. It undoubtedly runs the same speed on all computers. If the true speed is what everyone is seeing on a 2mgz or faster computer, then .. I don't like it. On a slower PC the water movements are very deliberate and graceful. On my 2mhz it's a blur and I can't appreciate the effect.

If it's true speed is what everyone is seeing on a modern PC (not a smaller slower computer running say Win95 or Win 3.1), then a speed adjuster would be nice to have. Perhaps a # from 0-15. The snow, however, runs the same speed on both a slow and normal PC and runs at a perfect speed.

I seem to recall rewind having a ZSNES feature from days long past.

ZSNES having rewind ? Not the other way around.
Well I didn't see it there. The function is avail. and works fine in Windows version.

Elaborate. What is the functionality of the hypothetical "frame editor"? Expand on what it does and perhaps someone can tell you why it does not exist.

* Frame editor could be an incorrect definition.
It is the ability to freeze emulation where it is, and use, say the LEFT and RIGHT arrow keys to move forwards and backwards in emulation one graphic frame at a time (by graphic I mean the screen MUST have changed it's image in one way or the other compared to the prior "frame.". Holding down the arrow key would repeat it. Currently when you pause emulation and go ahead one frame in ZSNES for Windows, you must release the key and hit it again to go to the next frame instead of it repeating at a speed say half or quarter of a second.

Further, it only goes ahead a system frame, not a graphic frame.
For slow animations you must repeatedly hit it to get the 2nd animation step you were looking for. A quick check of the screen to see which elements changed in the previous frame would be a more accurate way to extract graphics with the "frame editor."

During this time you can hit digits 1-5 (or whatever you have your keyboard defined to) to both remove/re-appear planes and sprites. Hitting ENTER could bring up a savebox to save off the current IMAGE seen as a bitmap/*.PNG with a custom filename.

Improving audio emulation is one goal. Creating audio filters is quite another. Your analogy that applying an audio filter over the original waveform will be akin to changing it from MIDI to MP3 is laughable.

* Well they are doing SOMETHING to the audio to improve it.
Either by adding effect(s), doubling the audio at different pitches, whatever it is they are doing. it could be looked into as this one of their main features and a future feature for ZSNES.

MIDI is the musical instrument digital interface. The reason why MIDI quality is perceived terrible by numerous people is that it is synthesized to produce output. The instruments are not included in any particular MIDI file, so listening to the same song on different systems can result in significantly different output. The quality of the synthesizer is a huge factor, and the popularity of MIDI pretty much died out before excellent, relatively cheap sythesizers were broadly available on the desktop market.

* I referred to MIDI in my message as a contrast, not a definition.

The opposite of synthesized music is called tracked music. The SPC700 processes tracked music, not synthesized music (and no filter of any sort will change that). One of the reasons why ripped SNES tracks (SPCs) compress so well in solid archives is that each song shares a large percentage of data with every other -- including the initialization code and the instrument definitions.

* Can't say I really have gotten into listening to SPC music.
Now PSX1/2 music PSF files are quite a different story.

MIDI and SPC are only similar in that both must be converted to an actual waveform before it can be played back. This is true of every single digital music or audio format ever conceived (it is the nature of using digital data to represent sound -- which is in nature a continuous, analog wave).

Some formats are simply more direct than others -- PCM-based formats are representations of the digitized, or sampled, analog waves necessary for playback.

Finally, MP3 is nothing but a compression format -- MPEG Audio, Layer 3. It is probably an understatement to say the format is outdated; it was originally devised in 1987. However, it is still relatively efficient at compressing raw waveforms to a fraction of their original size -- albeit using lossy algorithms.

* I referred to Mp3 in my message as a contrast, not a definition.

Now that our terminology is clear -- will you explain why it is that you feel post-processing filters massively improve audio quality? Multiple interpolation engines already exist in the ZSNES sound core -- gaussian, cubic spline, and 8-point. If these are insufficient, it would be wise to explain how and why.

* This is a definite feature I would like to see so let me see if I can find the emulator.

. . .

I am not finding the SNES emulator on ZOPHAR.
I believe it was in DOS, had a GUI, and a special audio option.
Can you please list a URL that lists ALL SNES emulators, including old ones ? Zophar is definitely not listing all made to date.

Use newer software or newer hardware. Process priority is not available (or not effective) on Windows 9x, and certainly not on DOS. If one is multitasking 10 to 15 applications at once, it is important to have enough memory and processing power available to handle it. ZSNES uses hardly any CPU time while idle here, and the memory usage is quite acceptable.

* Why does it use more system time in GUI than in emulator then ?
I run a TuneUP utilities program in the background to show system use, and while emulating it is about half, when I enter GUI, it shoots up to 80%.

Without presenting a workable, cross-platform solution, what do you honestly expect to be done about this?

* If exact cross-platform is required, that is, one version must behave exactly as the prior with zero variance, then nothing can be done.

HQ2x is not sufficient?

* Ah ! I see it there.
It is above VSYNC to the right of Interpolation.
Interpolation would not checkmark and it appeared to me that HQ2X was linked to it. I see now it is not. Resolution changed.

One reason why ZSNES has a custom GUI in the first place is to ensure that it will operate consistently under all platforms (which initially included DOS and Windows, and later came to include Linux/GNU and any others that support SDL). The proposed solution to this issue alienates DOS from GUI updates.

* I see this. I prefer ZSNES not having resizeable windows compared to having an ugly titlebar.

SNES9x has a resizeable window for Win32. I despise that, because arbitrary scaling makes absolutely no sense to me. Fixed ratio scaling is at the very least, far more orderly.

* I do not use SNES9X for two main features.
Speed adjustment (half speed) and autofire.

The other reason why it is despicable? People have come to rely so much on that feature that SNES9x's full screen handling gets very little attention. At last examination, SNES9x full screen works nothing like ZSNES full screen.

* If you ALT-TAB to another task while SNES9X is up, then you lose the ability to return to it. It can be selected again with ALT-TAB but the screen does not change back to it.

Once more, the reasoning here is absent. Why do double scaling? There's no need to "stretch" and then scale again with any of the 2x filters. Set a fullscreen fixed-ratio (R rather than S) mode, then enable the filter.

* Resolution met using that technique.

9. No additional auto-fire configuration is available.

Key combinations can accomplish custom delays. IIRC, it is possible to rapid fire a key-combo by assigning it a button.

What games, anyway? It seems difficult to believe that a game would ignore autofire unless it was intentionally programmed to do that (in which case, don't you deserve what you get?).

* Don't deserve what I get ??
It's one of the RPGs. Most of the games recognize and accept auto-fire, some do not. For instance, suppose I am purchasing several potions. Well, it's an old game and won't let you specify a number so you would think you could hold down the auto-fire key and get them. No. It gets one purchase and then waits for you to let go of auto-fire.

Sometimes you press and hold it nothing happens. You hit the original key once, then hit the auto-fire key and then it works that one time and waits for you to once again let go of auto-fire. Without being able to specify a delay between auto-fire strokes, certain games will not recognize auto-fire.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

[creaothceann]

If it's true speed is what everyone is seeing on a modern PC (not a smaller slower computer running say Win95 or Win 3.1), then a speed adjuster would be nice to have. Perhaps a # from 0-15.

LOL. Devs, how soon can we expect it please?

It is the ability to freeze emulation where it is, and use, say the LEFT and RIGHT arrow keys to move forwards and backwards in emulation one graphic frame at a time (by graphic I mean the screen MUST have changed it's image in one way or the other compared to the prior "frame.". Holding down the arrow key would repeat it. Currently when you pause emulation and go ahead one frame in ZSNES for Windows, you must release the key and hit it again to go to the next frame instead of it repeating at a speed say half or quarter of a second.

You can't "move emulation backwards". One solution would require saving the previous status, so your harddrive would be cluttered with 60 (50 for PAL) savestates per second.

Btw. Animation Shop recognizes identical frames.

[Noxious Ninja]

Well, you could store them in memory, but it would quickly suck up a lot of RAM.

I was thinking how this could work after I joked about making ZSNES into an AviSynth plugin. You could use movies, one a second or something. You hit the "back a frame" button, ZSNES jumps back 60, then fast forwards 59. It would be transparent to the user as long as he has a fast enough CPU.

[grinvader]

Here are a few features I'd like to see and questions answered.

1a. For ZSNESW for windows, the WATER effects run much too quickly, using no timer to see how fast the computer is.

GUI visual effect; priority of anything purely aesthetical = close to nil
I'd rather try to find why the burning effect doesn't work in the SDL port, and even that is really low priority.

2. Add a REWIND option for DOS ZSNES.

Please get latest WIP.

2a. For both ZSNES and ZSNESW, have a key to enter FRAME-per-FRAME mode with ability to turn on/off backgrounds and ability to go forward/backwards one-frame at a time so programmers and web builders designing shrines for SNES games can rip out images even if there is a single image they want that is seen less than a 20th of a second running at normal speed.

Forward = already done, backwards = maybe in your wildest dreams.
You can completely freeze time, or slow it down to a snail's pace - a detail lasting a twentieth of second will last up to one second and a half onscreen.

3. Improve the audio. I believe it was ESNES or NKLSNES that had an option to tremendously enhance the audio with echo and kakalia effect.
I have not heard audio like this anywhere else and it far surpassed the real SNES audio. The difference between MIDI & Mp3.

We'll focus on getting accurate audio first. Opinions and tastes for sound enhancements will have to wait.

4. Option to SLEEP for ZSNESW when not active. Often I am using ZSNESW while working on other applications and find that it still runs in the background even though I've switched to another application. There does not seem to be an option to SLEEP it.

Please get latest WIP.

5. Hitting [ESC] to enter menu mode somehow takes a GREAT DEAL more system time while in this mode than running the emulation itself. When I have 10-15 apps running, it make a big difference. What gives ?

See previous.

5a. If you are using DOS ZSNES and from windows hit ALT-TAB to return to the DOS window, most of the time the screen is messed up. Checking to see if you are returning from Windows to DOS could reset the screen easily every time to ensure it does not mess up or worse, enter a resolution your screen doesn't have thereby trashing out the display entirely.

Windows ? Use zsnesW. There are several ports for several reasons, this being one.

6. Option for MAME 2x-scaling in both ZSNES and ZSNESW.

First, if we add a filter, it'll be for all ports. Second, since it's only aesthetical, it has very low priority from zsnes devs - for hq*x (the latest introduced) MaxSt did all the hard work. That's why zsnes is open source.

7. Option for REAL WINDOW mode, where you have a draggable window frame as is provided with most Windows Applications and the ability to resize the window by grabbing the bottom-right-hand corner and dragging.

Already in SDL port. Please wait for a windows SDL port, or for a similar option to be coded in the directX code.

8. DOS ZSNES can stretch the screen but not do this AND a graphic filter like 2xEagle. It would be nice if you could activate more than one choice here.

Aesthetical, DOS-only request: priority = nothing under it, sorry

9. Auto-fire. Auto-fire in ZSNES is very good.
The keys I have configured are:
N8, N2, N4, N6, 9CH, Q, D, C, F, V, W, E, A, Z, R, --, --, S, X, T, --, --
If you could change the timing on one or more of your auto-fire keys from A-A-A to A--A--A or A---A---A then auto-fire should work correctly for ALL games. There are several games auto-fire does not work because the timing is too fast.

60Hz and 30Hz repeats currently available. 30Hz works in all games. If you need perfect variable timing between keypresses, you can use a clever key combo.

(purely optional)

We have enough to do as it is now, and visual candy isn't on the list.

I hope this will help you get the picture. Nothing I wrote here was in the least bit aggressive, so please refrain from posting inconsiderate remarks (lest you want the cats in your neighbourhood to meet a gruesome fate).

[Nach]

I'd rather try to find why the burning effect doesn't work in the SDL port, and even that is really low priority.

Nothing to do with SDL, it's MSVC vs. GCC.

[dw817]

Hi Grinvader:

We have enough to do as it is now, and visual candy isn't on the list.

I hope this will help you get the picture. Nothing I wrote here was in the least bit aggressive, so please refrain from posting inconsiderate remarks (lest you want the cats in your neighbourhood to meet a gruesome fate).

* Hey, you leave my cats out of this, and you are claiming I was inconsiderate ? Me ? Never.

* Regarding WIP ZSNES, it is very good. I can see the difficulty involved in backing up a single frame, and the BACK ability for ZSNESW more than suffices. I can rewind the effect, pause it, go frame-per-frame to retrieve it. Also when you are paused, you cannot see the screen adjust for enable/disable graphic planes unless the emulation is not paused.

In fact, it puts the text there and then doesn't erase it so it overwrites the last message that was there.

A filebox would be nice when you snapshot the *.BMP, and/or the ability to copy the BMP entirely to the clipboard so you can bring up PSP7 and paste it direct with (Shift)-INS.

[dw817]

Greets Clements:

I must say that all the "feature" suggestions in post #1 are either redundant or needless.

* Neither. I am understanding that several of these requests are "in the works" so they are neither considering them redundant nor needless.

Thanks for your input though, I'm certain it will benefit someone.

[SquareHead]

This thread is a lesson in futility.

But then again, what do I know?

[Clements]

I want ZSNES to toast and butter my bread, and apply extra jam.

... and my use of either/or was correct in that context.

[Phil]

I want Zsnes to think by itself and be everyone's favorite friend.

[SquareHead]

I want ZSNES to toast and butter my bread, and apply extra jam.

... and my use of either/or was correct in that context.

Is that still hidden in the code? Or has that since been pulled out?

[Agozer]

I want ZSNES to toast and butter my bread, and apply extra jam.

... and my use of either/or was correct in that context.

Is that still hidden in the code? Or has that since been pulled out?

It's still there methinks.

[SquareHead]

Thats sad I still have yet to find the option to have zsnes toast my bread, butter, garlic, or jam it.

[Nach]

Thats sad I still have yet to find the option to have zsnes toast my bread, butter, garlic, or jam it.

It is quite sad, especially considering the time the board said you posted this (but then again, I don't know what timezone you're in).

[CyberBotX]

I've seen that "Overhauled toaster support" thing in the change log, but I'm curious as to where this toaster support is. >.> And do I need a plugin for my printer to get the toast?

[Agozer]

You need to find it on your own.

[Noxious Ninja]

If you stay up for a couple of days looking for it, you ought to find it.

[jj_frap]

Catering to old DOS machines with new versions of ZSNES is a waste: Anybody who with a computer bad enough to need a DOS version should be using old versions of ZSNES...

Worry about important things, like getting stereo sound to work in Der Langrisser.