A question of diagonals...

[Holonet]

I was just wondering if anyone else noticed this... I've had Sidewinders before, and I have the highly praised Dual Action Logitech now. They have the "round" D-pad design which makes rolling from an axis direction to a diagonal a seamless and thumb-friendly process...great...but not great for some SNES games, I've noticed... Like in Final Fantasy 3 (or 6 for the series fans ), I get sprint shoes and run around...Now, I used to be able to zig zag and follow a path precisely flying through it...but now with it detecting these diagonals in a little bit too analog of a sense, I end up switching directions if my thumb is not EXACTLY pressing one of the axis directions. I also noticed I'm having a hell of a time pulling off Sabin's blitzes...or the fireballs in Street Fighter because of this issue. This is not really a big deal, and I suppose I could just order the USB converter for the actual SNES controller...but I've been a fan of the jack-of-all-trades devices... Just wondering if I'm the only one just slightly irked by this or if there's a way to make the controller move more discretely or make the diagonals less sensetive...though I'm doubting it unless I want to perform surgery on the thing... Oh well I guess it's just a bounce thoughts post...I'll hush now...

[Agozer]

Hint: Final Fantasy VI doesn't recognize diagonals. I've had trouble pulling Blitzes as well, so I just made a key combo. As for other games that use "rolling" motions, I've had no trouble with.

I'm not eve sure that you can make the diagonals less sensitive since the SNES pad didn't have analog controls to begin with.

[Mike]

I don't think zsnes has anything to do with your controller sensitivity, I have a very sensitive controller also so I just plainly don't use it. It's most likely your controller not zsnes.

[Holonet]

Yeah I know it's not ZSNES, that was the point...a question of controller choice. I've noticed a lot of people seem to like the Dual Action or Sidewinders...and yeah, they're nice gamepads, but their analog sensitivity interferes with some games. They're "too good" to be accurate replacements for the SNES. I didn't know the SNES actually had no diagonals...but you could move diagonally in some games...so I guess you had to be precise and push it well enough to get 2 directions simultaneously. In fact, I even remember doing that on the original NES in the original Legend of Zelda. It is possible to throw that boomerang diagonally, it's just a pain in the arse...[EDIT: Sorry I remembered it as SNES didn't recognize them, not FF itself] I was really just bouncing ideas... I realize there's the USB converter for the actual SNES pad. I guess I'm just wondering if it's a better idea to find a cheapo with more discrete movements or if getting that thing is the only cure for the problem...not that it's expensive. It seems most controllers nowadays have the "advanced" features which are a double-edged sword.

[blackmyst]

Yeah I know it's not ZSNES, that was the point...a question of controller choice. I've noticed a lot of people seem to like the Dual Action or Sidewinders...and yeah, they're nice gamepads, but their analog sensitivity interferes with some games. They're "too good" to be accurate replacements for the SNES. I didn't know the SNES actually had no diagonals...but you could move diagonally in some games...so I guess you had to be precise and push it well enough to get 2 directions simultaneously. In fact, I even remember doing that on the original NES in the original Legend of Zelda. It is possible to throw that boomerang diagonally, it's just a pain in the arse...[EDIT: Sorry I remembered it as SNES didn't recognize them, not FF itself] I was really just bouncing ideas... I realize there's the USB converter for the actual SNES pad. I guess I'm just wondering if it's a better idea to find a cheapo with more discrete movements or if getting that thing is the only cure for the problem...not that it's expensive. It seems most controllers nowadays have the "advanced" features which are a double-edged sword.

I don't know about the "too good" part. Are you using an analogue stick to play SNES games? In that case, any problems you get are your own fault, just use the directional pad.

Besides, unless I'm missing something, ALL directional controls on every gamepad, be it directional pads or analogue sticks, only have x and y directions anyway (except for the z thing which I haven't really seen used anywhere), there is no such thing as separate diagonals. That would be useless, adding extra complexity without adding function. So no, the SNES doesn't detect them because they don't exist.

And yes of course the NES and SNES could detect x and y at the same time, would be pretty ridicilous if they couldn't. In fact, I can't say I know of any console since the dawn of gaming that can't.

[Holonet]

No I'm not using an analog stick...I mean there is one that would attempt to do the same job, but yea, of course I'm using the D-pad. I'm just saying the modern D-pads seem to be sort of a hybrid between the analog stick and the old kind of D-pads, in that they "roll" too easily. That's good for some games of course... The reason I was thinking of separate diagonals was because when I loaded the profiler for the game pad to test it, I could press the "diagonal" and have it light up discretely, and not have the two constituent directions light up as well...now that could just be software, but regardless of the reason of the problem, it's there, and it isn't because I'm using the analogue stick hehe. I think what happens is there is no "boundary" of any kind between the directions...like it's easy to just press two directions and get your diagonal...too easy...Whereas, assuming, as you said, that there are no such thing as separate diagonals, on the SNES, if you just naturally roll your thumb to another one of the axis directions, you stop pressing the original direction unless you press down some. The newer pads don't seem to do this, which makes it a bit annoying to try going one direction without slipping into that diagonal and the character stopping, going where you don't want, etc...

[blackmyst]

That's really not a problem of the pad being too "modern", that's just an inherent annoyance that pads of that shape have had ever since the Master System.

I have this old Gravis Gamepad Pro which, while being a nice controller, has the same problem, it's just hard to properly press straight left or right or something. So yeah, instead of being better I think these newer pads are worse than Nintendo's old cross-shaped pad. That's why I just got a SNES to USB converter. A PS2 to USB converter would be recommendable also, as the Dual Shock's directional pad doesn't really have this problem either.

[Holonet]

Yeah I agree, I'll probably go with the USB converter. I do think it is somewhat of a "modernization" thing though... Like has been said, you could throw the boomerang diagonally in the Legend of Zelda (though it wasn't much fun)...but you couldn't walk diagonally. The majority of the necessary functions of older games could be accomplished by just the axis directions. Like I don't think I'd have as much trouble if the characters were meant to walk diagonally in FF6...but it doesn't swallow it, so it seems to get confused and mess up what direction you're pressing when it detects both. Like in Chrono Trigger, they are meant to walk like that, except on the world map...and it's not really a problem in that case. I think as the games started having more mainstream use for diagonals, they made the controllers better designed to exploit that... The Logitech works great for FF7, for example. The cross design made you pick one direction or the other unless you made a deliberate effort to go diagonal (by pressing down carefully)...and that's what a lot of games were designed around...so if I try to run in a up-over-up-over pattern quickly, I can instead of getting input carnage. So I don't know... I think the cross is definitely better for the SNES, but if the game is programmed to accept a diagonal movement, then I don't see a problem with the "modern" design...or whatever it is...

[blackmyst]

There are plenty of NES games that feature diagonal movement, it works just fine. Zelda ALTTP, one of the first SNES games, has it. Final Fantasy just wasn't the kind of game for it. There's a reason 2 out of the 3 currentgen and nextgen consoles still use the cross shaped design. It just provides the most accurate control for any 2D game or interface, not just SNES games.

[Holonet]

Yeah now if the PC would just follow suit . All I can add is it's not just a matter of the cross design. I had one PC controller, one of those airflow things...big mistake haha...but it had a cross design, but still had the same problem, because the contacts were still too easily pressed simultaneously. The cross provides less surface area for your thumb to hit a diagonal by mistake, but the sensor underneath has to do the same thing.