Final Fantasy freak (Sound of rain)

Xane · Post by **Xane** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:26 am

I am a huge fan of ZSNES and final fantasy. I have used this program for years and will use it in the future.
My problem is this. When you enter Zozo instead of a bacon frying/rain falling sound you get this high pitched whine. Now I have tried just about everything that I can think of. Can someone give me some recomendations. (after all the sound works fine in snes9x but I don't like that program)

Post by **Agozer** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:40 am

This is called the Square Sound Rape, which ZSNES doesn't emulate correctly. The names originates from a trick Square used in some of its games; they deliberately made the SNES sendbad sound data to the SPC sound processor to create certain sound effects like rain and wind.

You just have to wait for this "feature" to get properly emulated.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:57 am

Zozo's rain sounds just about right... what version and port of ZSNES are you using anyhow?

If you have the latest official version, it isn't that bad. Either my hearing is a little off, but perhaps you need to change your sound settings to reduce the problem you have.

Make sure the sound rate is at 48000Hz and that you have Gaussian or one of the other sound interpolation filters checked...

Hmm.. checking my audio settings.. the thing that really helped actually was using the Lowpass filters...

Dmog · Post by **Dmog** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:58 am

Xane wrote:I am a huge fan of ZSNES and final fantasy. I have used this program for years and will use it in the future.
My problem is this. When you enter Zozo instead of a bacon frying/rain falling sound you get this high pitched whine. Now I have tried just about everything that I can think of. Can someone give me some recomendations. (after all the sound works fine in snes9x but I don't like that program)

Long standing emulation innacuracies in Zsnes causes these issues.It's known here as "Square-rape"

Zsnes has issues with with games that use rather unorthodox methods of generating sound fx. Most Snes Square games used such "unorthodox" coding hence the "Square rape". Pagefault said he's working on it.

Only recommendation would to be try another Snes emulator that doesn't have that problem (bsnes for example)

Dmog · Post by **Dmog** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:04 am

Agozer wrote:This is called the Square Sound Rape, which ZSNES doesn't emulate correctly. The names originates from a trick Square used in some of its games; they deliberately made the SNES sendbad sound data to the SPC sound processor to create certain sound effects like rain and wind.

You just have to wait for this "feature" to get properly emulated.

The reason I think it's stupid to call it "Square-rape" is because: It really isn't a "feature".Technically, the "feature" you're talking about is the Snes itself, and that's what not emulated properly here.

I doubt if you were to look at bsnes source code, you would find a 'squarape.c' module or something you know.

MorteTheSkull · Post by **MorteTheSkull** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:09 am

Is that also why the regular town music sometimes sounds really bad on ZSnes in FF6?

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:26 am

Dmog wrote:The reason I think it's stupid to call it "Square-rape" is because: It really isn't a "feature".Technically, the "feature" you're talking about is the Snes itself, and that's what not emulated properly here.

It's not a "feature" but really something Square abused.. but other games/companies have done this as well...

It's really... an intended response to a hardware component which under normal circumstances should not have been made to do in the first place.

This "intended unintended response" has not been emulated just yet... or is it "unintended intended response"...

MorteTheSkull wrote:Is that also why the regular town music sometimes sounds really bad on ZSnes in FF6?

Mmm... no.. that's probably just you... which towns did you think were affected? They all sound pretty good to me.

Xane · Post by **Xane** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:38 am

Well...thank you all that dose clear up some things. What I don't understand is why it used to work (on an older version) on zsnes.
I suppose I'll have to sink so low as to use snes9x for zozo then...well ...MONKEY CHUNKS...that is all

snkcube · Post by **snkcube** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:42 am

Xane wrote:Well...thank you all that dose clear up some things. What I don't understand is why it used to work (on an older version) on zsnes.
I suppose I'll have to sink so low as to use snes9x for zozo then...well ...MONKEY CHUNKS...that is all

I think it used to sound better on older versions of ZSNES because it might of had hacks to make it work.

Clements · Post by **Clements** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:43 am

I believe older versions had hacks to get it to work, but were later removed as the audio code was revised. Eventually, these sound effects will be emulated correctly in ZSNES without the hackish code. Until then, there is always bsnes.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:54 am

I've just tested the ZOZO rain sound between ZSNES and Snes9x and I couldn't hear any actual differences between them...

It sounds more like a different issue (crappy sound card or something)...

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:03 am

Make sure the sound rate is at 48000Hz and that you have Gaussian or one of the other sound interpolation filters checked...

And you wonder why it sounds bad... does anyone here ever bother to read the SNES technical specifications before posting these recommendations?

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:15 am

byuu wrote:And you wonder why it sounds bad... does anyone here ever bother to read the SNES technical specifications before posting these recommendations?

No... besides only knowing that 32000Hz+Gaussian interpolation from the ZSNES documentation is closest to the original...

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:33 am

Right, so why would you recommend 48khz audio with any filter other than gaussian, especially in a thread where the post is about an effect not sounding like real hardware? :/
Not only does the upsampling not actually improve anything, it causes additional lossy interpolation.
e.g.
1 2 3 4 5 6
becomes
1 22 3 44 5 66

Now, getting it to your sound card probably converts it to whatever it processes internally anyway (for mixing and such), but why make it worse by doing it a second time in software?

If 48khz really does sound better than 32khz mode in ZSNES for whatever reason, then I am speechless, and you have my apologies. With my $15 3w speakers, I could hardly be considered an audiophile.

LDAWG · Post by **LDAWG** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:30 pm

Just so you know byuu... bsnes gives me a hard-on, everytime I "hear" it in action!
Hopefully soon, when you get your new video stuff in, seeing it in action will be awesome too.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:11 pm

Well, I can't tell in any game the differences between the sample rate (except when it is below 32000Hz level where obvious pronounced differences rear their ugly head). Unless someone can suggest a game I can test that there is a real difference, I don't think there's too much of a difference in the first place.

Xane · Post by **Xane** » Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:27 pm

Well I went back and checked my version. lol I feel like the biggest goof in the world

. My version of zsnes is an old version. I must have lost the last update when I used system restore last time. Anyway Thank you everyone! Sorry for the problems!

Bahamut_ZERO_Clue · Post by **Bahamut_ZERO_Clue** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:30 am

Cubic Spline usually clears this up, but it does have its limitations. I really don't notice it too much anymore.

The Square Sound Rape... wasn't it like compressed audio or something?

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:50 pm

Bahamut_ZERO_939 wrote:The Square Sound Rape... wasn't it like compressed audio or something?

You may want to search for the thread about pagefault wanting to find instances of the bug and what he thinks is going on. I'd just wait for the next WIP of ZSNES that deals with this issue.

Xane wrote:Well I went back and checked my version. lol I feel like the biggest goof in the world Embarassed . My version of zsnes is an old version. I must have lost the last update when I used system restore last time. Anyway Thank you everyone! Sorry for the problems!

Yea.. that helps us..

System restore is a vastly overrated/useless feature... it's nice if you were to pay attention to the version you were using...

Post by **pagefault** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:56 am

Just so everyone knows. For FF3 to work properly you need to be using 32khz with guassian interpolation. Any other options will not play some sound effects back properly. There are also some issues in the current sound which prevent some sounds from being played back properly. These are being addressed right now in the *nix port and then the windows port respectively. The DOS port does not have these problems.

Bahamut_ZERO_Clue · Post by **Bahamut_ZERO_Clue** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:43 am

Well I actually found out what the Square Sound Rape was recently from a guy who does some programming with games down near LA from where I live. It's not actually "bad" audio data. It's a custom white noise generator/simulation technique Square designed to make psuedo rain, wind, and ocean wave sound effects. White Noise is considered bad audio data in some terms of audio processing meaning it background, unfiltered noise data. He didn't give me the exactness of the noise ratio level so I'm guessing and so was he whatever the level of static white noise ZSnes's SPC700 emulation engine can process it's either below or above the current ranges used.

the same technique was even used in the production of other newer games for eventhe PSOne and PS2 for the same purposes. And in reality wind, rain, and ocean wave sounds are really considered static/background white noise even though they are actual sounds.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:31 pm

pagefault wrote:Just so everyone knows. For FF3 to work properly you need to be using 32khz with guassian interpolation. Any other options will not play some sound effects back properly. There are also some issues in the current sound which prevent some sounds from being played back properly. These are being addressed right now in the *nix port and then the windows port respectively. The DOS port does not have these problems.

Which other options specifically don't allow this to work? (Obviously choosing a different sample rate and sound interpolation are one of them)..

Any of the low pass filtering?
Surround sound?
Sound buffering?

Post by **pagefault** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:26 am

You need to be using guassian interpolation. Other types of interpolation will break some of the sounds in FF3. I don't think the lowpass filters will interefere with the sound. Surround sound shouldn't affect it eithe

ZSNES board

Final Fantasy freak (Sound of rain)

Final Fantasy freak (Sound of rain)

Re: Final Fantasy freak (Sound of rain)