Wii Virtual Console vs. Emulators

[Jipcy]

I was going to bring up their lies about the DS *NOT* being the GBA's successor. They kept trying to reassure people they weren't killing off the DS so soon by replacing it. Lies. GBA was nothing but a holdover product. I would throw some quotes out for supporting evidence, but I don't think I could dig up those press releases now.

So which are you more mad about? Them lying about it, possibly killing the Gameboy brand, or that you feel the GBA was a holdover product?

I own a GBA original and a Nintendo DS original. I like the DS a lot better. I quite like the new direction Nintendo is taking. Free-form inputs like the touchscreen I believe are going to be very important in the future. However, we still need a handheld system that has at least 299x224/598x448 resolution so we can play SNES games at 4:3 native resolution.

I'm going to be mad if they kill the Gameboy brand though.

[Nightcrawler]

Jipcysnkcube:

Definitely the lie. I know all companies lie, but usually not outright blatant false statements like that. GBA being holdover is strike two and still a big one. They milked the original GB for a ridiculous amount of time and then GBA lasted only a few short years. It's not about competition either. They didn't do anything with the original GB with any of it's vastly superior technical competitors.

snkcube:

I disagree. They premeditated the DS replacing the GBA. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have put in GBA backwards compatibility! I am convinced Nintendo knew exactly what they were doing, and stuck those lies out there to hold the GBA owners and potential GBA buyers at the time at bay.

sweener2001:

Sure, there's bound to be SOME side effects that their core emulators will run multiple games and they won't have to touch EVERY single game. However, thus far, it looks as though they will have to touch quite a few.

It still doesn't even matter. Fact is, there is HUGE library of games. So, they are able to double my guess and do 400, or 600 even. That's still a far cry from covering the game libraries of those systems.


Deathlike2:

Ok, let's say they couldn't invest the time, and didn't have the skill to make a working emulator. If they weren't so bullheaded anti-emulator, there's no reason they couldn't have approached some emu authors with some very good working emulators about acquiring them for use on the Virtual Console. They didn't even bother trying.


I am confident Nintendo COULD have been able to make some large libraries available on the VC if they wanted to. They had more than one way to do it. Instead, if what they have done thus far is any indication, they will never have even half the library at the end of Wii's lifespan of what they could have had.

So, I'm not even faulting them for not making everything available up front, I'm faulting them because from all the information we have thus far, they will never be able to make that many games available.

[blackmyst]

On a side note, I really don't think it would make a difference if all games were available today or piece mealed through 5 years. Having more games available now would boost Wii sales because VC would have a real library. And the individual game sales probably wouldn't change in my opinion.

I really can't agree on that. It might seem preferable to you and me, but that's just not how people work. Give them everything in one go and they'll grow bored. Feed them a small trickle over time and it'll keep them excited for new stuff each week.

It's common practice, isn't it? I mean, you don't see any TV shows that are shown in 12-hour marathons the first time just because they already happen to have all their material right there. Newspaper comics (the non-funny ones that form a larger story) are printed three panels at a time, instead of just printing the entire book at once and then having nothing for months. Just quoting random obvious examples, but you know what I mean.

(edit: just read that little bit you wrote up there, but still.)



Oh, and I think you're being a bit too harsh on them about the GBA thing. I don't think even Nintendo could have predicted the ludicrous success that the DS has become.

[kieran_]

* kieran punches and kicks Nightcrawler several times in the head and groin.

[sweener2001]

gba backwards compatibility was put in to motivate purchases. it gave early adopters something to fall back on.

i doubt that nintendo knew the ds was a surefire thing. i mean, a whole interface and way of gaming in the handheld market doesn't really sound like a plan for success. not when slight improvements and stick with what you know have been the standard for forever.

and while you stand by your principle, it doesn't stop the ds from being an amazing machine with an equally amazing library.

[Nightcrawler]

Valid points gentlemen. I shall not argue them. A lot of this is conjecture and/or speculation. Perhaps I'm even forming a Nintendo conspiracy theory.

Here's another angle to consider. What do you guys think about this:

Everybody knows most of us use emulators and ROMs. This is obviously illegal. Nintendo has shown strong opposition to this over the years. The virtual console finally gives them a chance to really make a difference. With a large library available, it could actually be a viable alternative to do things the 'right' and legal way.

As it stands today with limited selection, I don't think the Virtual console really gives much reason to leave the emulators behind. I think this may have been a mistake. If I were on the business consulting team, I would have suggested the fact that they could lure away a large user base of emulators and ROMs to the virtual console. To do this effectively, a large library would need to be offered to counter the ROM sets being downloaded.

[funkyass]

As it stands today with limited selection, I don't think the Virtual console really gives much reason to leave the emulators behind. I think this may have been a mistake. If I were on the business consulting team, I would have suggested the fact that they could lure away a large user base of emulators and ROMs to the virtual console. To do this effectively, a large library would need to be offered to counter the ROM sets being downloaded.

Outside of the fact that nintendo only owns the rights to their first and second party games, as a business plan its hard to conceivably justify.

Thats is a rather large outlay of funds - Nintendo has to pay more money to get the rights for that large library to woo people who already don't pay for it.

then you have to deal with catalogue presentation - thats a library of a couple thousand games, even divided into sections by genre and letter is a fairly large list to go thru on a television screen, just for some to find a game. You want people to use it, not turn away from it.

Then there is pricing, which for a catalogue of that size, is a large undertaking in and of itself.

So nintendo is doing the most sane thing business wise with the VC currently, and guess what, their intended audience isn't you.

[sweener2001]

i'm starting to think that a unified emulator per console, while saving space, would also throw in the fear of piracy. they would only have to give you the ROM image, and while a fear of piracy is unfounded and retarded, it is a big company who really isn't in the loop.

so another reason could be for propriety-ness.

but i'm just counter-speculating, i don't really have an opinion one way or another.

[snkcube]

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news ... rtid=12894

Looks like developers can update existing games to fix issues. That's actually quite awesome.

[Jipcy]

Very interesting. Thanks for the report. Although in this case, it seems like they're fixing the "emulator" rather than the "ROM".

[snkcube]

Very interesting. Thanks for the report. Although in this case, it seems like they're fixing the "emulator" rather than the "ROM".

Haha, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out.

[snkcube]

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news ... rtid=12918

There might be a chance that Japanese only games might reach the U.S. Plus, it might even be translated too.

[darkbenny]

saweet, maybe we will see some mother3 action on Wii

[darkbenny]

http://www.fiercegamebiz.com/story/prof ... 2007-01-25



seems the VC is selling the classics!

[Panzer88]

I've always been pissed that the GBA didn't acheive AT LEAST everything the SNES did.

I mean Sega made the game gear which was a master system, and then they made the Nomad which was a Genesis, both systems even played the original games as well as new ones.

They may not have the same battery life as a Gameboy, but they did this back in the 90s and the GBA still didn't get the resolution, or sound quality, what gives?

Also about emulators taking years of research, you are so right, and yeah, it's by no means easy. But they DID make the hardware, they have the rights to it, they have PAID PROFFESSIONALS to do this. They have tons of money to throw at this thing and they have no new features, and after paying for the game several times I expect some additions. I mean I was happy with Super Mario All Stars, I want to see more upgrades like this.

[Deathlike2]

I've always been pissed that the GBA didn't acheive AT LEAST everything the SNES did.

It is actually close. Only the sound chip is inferior to the one on the SNES.

I mean Sega made the game gear which was a master system, and then they made the Nomad which was a Genesis, both systems even played the original games as well as new ones.

They may not have the same battery life as a Gameboy, but they did this back in the 90s and the GBA still didn't get the resolution, or sound quality, what gives?

Battery life is everything on any handheld. IIRC, that is one of the major reasons that console was done in.

Also about emulators taking years of research, you are so right, and yeah, it's by no means easy. But they DID make the hardware, they have the rights to it, they have PAID PROFFESSIONALS to do this. They have tons of money to throw at this thing and they have no new features, and after paying for the game several times I expect some additions. I mean I was happy with Super Mario All Stars, I want to see more upgrades like this.

Just because Nintendo created the hardware, doesn't mean the people that created it are still around. Factor in the number of console generations that have passed, and you will finally come to the same conclusion Nintendo did which is to write an emulator (for each game no less). They would have to commit no less than romhacking (which Nintendo hates) to add more stuff to the original game.

[corronchilejano]

It is actually close. Only the sound chip is inferior to the one on the SNES.

I actually think it's a bit inferior. While playing FFVI I notice slowdowns that weren't there on the SNES version... or could it be due to port issues?

[Deathlike2]

It is actually close. Only the sound chip is inferior to the one on the SNES.

I actually think it's a bit inferior. While playing FFVI I notice slowdowns that weren't there on the SNES version... or could it be due to port issues?

You mean FF6A. I believe so. Casting Ultima and trying to navigate though a menu is strangely harder, so I suspect yes. Remember that FF3/6 was near the end of the SNES era so it was pushing quite a bit more than its predecessors.

[Panzer88]

the GBA also has a lower native resolution.

as far as enhanced updates, they wouldn't hardly have to resort to romhacking.

look at Super Mario All Stars. Please don't underestimate these guys they have, in this field anyways, unlimited resources.

honestly if they can make a game like twilight princess then they can rewrite zelda II from scratch at an SNES level, and at pretty low cost, they already have all the original art.

[Joe Camacho]

the GBA also has a lower native resolution.

as far as enhanced updates, they wouldn't hardly have to resort to romhacking.

look at Super Mario All Stars. Please don't underestimate these guys they have, in this field anyways, unlimited resources.

honestly if they can make a game like twilight princess then they can rewrite zelda II from scratch at an SNES level, and at pretty low cost, they already have all the original art.

Probably, but why bother? When they can create entirely *new* games, do you know how much time was spent developing All-Stars? I bet it's not as easy as copy-paste the art and done, new game!

If there is ever a remake of an old game, it will cost the same as a new game. Look at the Final Fantasy remakes on GBA. Why bother "remaking" when they have a lot of games ready to sell, and even so, they still have to work on them so they work on the virtual console in the first place.

Specially when you want them remaked and for the cost of a virtual console title, not gonna happen.

Nintendo, like any other company, wants to make money.

[Clements]

It is actually close. Only the sound chip is inferior to the one on the SNES.

I actually think it's a bit inferior. While playing FFVI I notice slowdowns that weren't there on the SNES version... or could it be due to port issues?

Probably port issues. The GBA is so much faster than a SNES that it does not need a SuperFX chip or otherwise to do 3D-type graphics.

[Deathlike2]

Probably, but why bother? When they can create entirely *new* games, do you know how much time was spent developing All-Stars? I bet it's not as easy as copy-paste the art and done, new game!

Ahahahahaha.

It is actually close. Only the sound chip is inferior to the one on the SNES.

I actually think it's a bit inferior. While playing FFVI I notice slowdowns that weren't there on the SNES version... or could it be due to port issues?

Probably port issues. The GBA is so much faster than a SNES that it does not need a SuperFX chip or otherwise to do 3D-type graphics.

That doesn't quite explain the slowness of the Airship. Anything Mode 7 related, it seems to choke on it somewhat. It's usable, but "not quite the same".

[Firon]

I think the slowdown with the Airship is just a case of poor coding. The GBA can do a much, much better job than the SNES with Mode7.

[Deathlike2]

I think the slowdown with the Airship is just a case of poor coding. The GBA can do a much, much better job than the SNES with Mode7.

I actually doubt that since it seems relatively wonky on all of the Mode 7 usage on all FF* Advance versions (well, specifically of the SNES games).

honestly if they can make a game like twilight princess then they can rewrite zelda II from scratch at an SNES level, and at pretty low cost, they already have all the original art.

Twilight Princess != Zelda 2 (and they don't even use the same console). As Joe said, you are better off rewriting it from the inside and make a GBA/DS port instead of trying to making it available from the Virtual Console.

Edit: Consider what the Virtual Console is doing.. it's using the original rom data and just running an emu on that data. Compared to a port, they have the original data and have to rewrite it to work appropriate with the port. The Virtual Console can't ever "do new stuff" unless any sort of romhacking is done on it. Just think about it for a moment. You would need something no less than an perfect SNES emu (or SNES flash carts and a real SNES) to test your romhacking changes on it. Also consider the priorities Nintendo has for the ports and the virtual console. You can't just throw money around here.

Just consider the following possible options and why it wouldn't make sense..

1) In order to add new stuff to the original game, you would need to know about the ASM the SNES used. I doubt there are many around to do such a thing. This alone isn't very practical because you would have to make sure to either rewrite the emulator used for this game and/or use a test bed with a "perfect SNES emulator" which they do not have or a SNES flash cart and real SNES to test their changes with. None of these options look very appealing on the development side.

2) Let's say the games were redone into more recent consoles such as the GBA or DS. By the time you redid all the work for this, why in hell would you want to release this for the virtual console instead of releasing as a new port altogether??? Even if you wanted to use it for the Virtual Console, you would have to write no less than a GBA/DS emu for the very game... which I doubt Nintendo would do for fear of it being disassembled by others...

Either way, redoing these games for the Virtual Console doesn't make sense on many levels especially when it would be more profitable as a new port. Writing an emu for each game makes sense for a cost/benefit ratio as it seems to me. Gamers would love to relive their old games with some new tweaks and all, but for Nintendo it makes no sense on any level. Do you understand Panzer?

[Clements]

It is actually close. Only the sound chip is inferior to the one on the SNES.

I actually think it's a bit inferior. While playing FFVI I notice slowdowns that weren't there on the SNES version... or could it be due to port issues?

Probably port issues. The GBA is so much faster than a SNES that it does not need a SuperFX chip or otherwise to do 3D-type graphics.

That doesn't quite explain the slowness of the Airship. Anything Mode 7 related, it seems to choke on it somewhat. It's usable, but "not quite the same".

F-Zero games did not choke on GBA with Mode 7.