Wii Virtual Console vs. Emulators

[Jipcy]

So, who do you think will win?

Really what I mean is, I think the overall demand and use of Nintendo-console emulators will go down, as more people get a Wii. I think most people would prefer to play a console game on a television than on a computer. So, depending on how well the Virtual Console works, and which games are offered for it, I think a lot of people will start using that more, instead of emulators.

I know that my demand for (using) emulators is going to go down once I get a Wii. I'm not getting one at launch, but I will get one later.

I think that N64 emulators could be most affected, since they currently seem to have the lowest compatibility and least complete emulation, compared to NES and SNES emulators.

Obviously, Nintendo is not and can not offer every single game made for a given system, so there will still be demand for emulators to play those games not offered for the Virtual Console.

But, you know, it seems like lots of the best games for each system will be offered on the Virtual Console. I may be able to finally retire my SNES after I get a Wii.

[casualsax3]

I think it's never going to replace my modded Xbox - ever.

[FitzRoy]

One thing you have to remember is that these reincarnations on the wii will cost money. A better idea would be for each company to offer their SNES/NES/N64 library on a dvd for $50 at the store. No such luck, though. They'll be happy to charge you $10 for one ancient game which you probably already bought, but weren't able to carry over on each new system. And it won't even be a hard copy that you can store or lend to your friends.

[Jipcy]

And it won't even be a hard copy that you can store or lend to your friends.

Well, I'm going to have to assume that once you buy a game for the Virtual Console, you will be able to play that game forever, regardless of an Internet connection; hopefully even after any Wii-related online services are dead.

I'm kind of thinking of the Wii and the Virtual Console as an investment.

Although, I think I'm going to have to play some games on Virtual Console before I buy it.

[corronchilejano]

As I recall, the Virtual Console only emulates certain ROMS, not all of them. I think it was on this same forums (or OCRemix) where I read that Virtual Console would only play roms with signature.

[byuu]

No such luck, though. They'll be happy to charge you $10 for one ancient game which you probably already bought, but weren't able to carry over on each new system. And it won't even be a hard copy that you can store or lend to your friends.

Exactly. The most important point to me. If Nintendo and co were able to come up with a license I could purchase that would grant me the rights to play and use said game anywhere I want forever, I would be willing to repurchase the games under the guise that my previous cartridge purchases were merely the rights to own that physical cart (which is incorrect anyway, but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt as there's no way to verify I purchased said game 10+ years ago).

And then I could be assured that I could play this game on emulators, on the Wii, and all future Nintendo products that explicity supported playing console game images, I would be willing to accept this.

Even better, Nintendo could arrange a program where you physically mail them your cartridges and they return to you a license to the image of that ROM plus that ROM data on a disk (yeah, I'm really dreaming now). This would even allow Nintendo to legally send you games they cannot resell now without the developer's consent which is impossible to obtain in some cases. See: fair use rights.

Hahahah, fair use rights ... I'll give you a minute to stop laughing.

...

...

Ok, now if you really think about it, anyone who's going to pirate these games will do so anyway, and mod the consoles and load their own emulators on them, or just use their PCs and freely available emulators. Nintendo has the ability to treat their customers with respect, give them a certificate of sorts that basically gives the customer the option to legally purchase and "own" said game, without having to worry about continually repurchasing the same game over and over and over again (the MPAA/RIAA's worst nightmare, no doubt). They could even just send the plain ROM, completely unencoded, along with a license key for each ROM, that you can store somewhere and use to gain access to download the ROM again from Nintendo's website or something for all of their future consoles.

The last thing you want to keep in mind is that I seriously, seriously doubt Nintendo gives a damn about hardware accuracy. As long as the game plays, it's good enough. I'm sure everyone is aware how buggy the N64 emulation was on that Zelda Collection GC disk. Nintendo's internal emulators used for their SDKs have a history of lacking hardware limitations and features as well. Nintendo may have made most of the consoles they emulate, but even their internal documentation on the consoles was lackluster at best, lacking documentation of many H/W limitations and edge cases. The only advantages Nintendo has is a team of paid developers and access to advanced hardware to attempt to reverse engineer their own consoles. They will have to do all the work we did to match where PC emulators stand at present.

I wouldn't waste money on the Wii games, until Nintendo ensures me the rights to have the games indefinitely. What if my Wii dies? What if I lose my SD card with the signed games on them? What if I want to use my legally purchased games elsewhere (eg on a PC emulator)? Will the actual ROM data be encrypted, other than just having a special signature for use with the Wii? (yes, it definitely will be encrypted)

Customers need to stop allowing companies to sell them licenses, and start demanding companies sell them rights to said IP. If we keep giving these companies money, they'll just keep restricting our rights as much as they possibly can, and future generations will learn to accept this as "just the way things are". Our governments granted us fair use rights for a reason, and we're willingly signing them away by "purchasing" these "products" from these companies.

Lastly, the prices are ridiculous. Up to $10 for a license to play a 15 year old game that has virtually no manufacturing, distribution or development costs whatsoever for Nintendo that I can buy for $1-$3 at a pawn shop, and probably won't be able to play again in five years from now? No thank you.

[AntoineWG]

Does anybody else here see the legal implications for emulation in this? The justification that many people use for downloading ROMs that they don't own is that the system is obsolete and the publisher isn't making money off of the game anyways. I seriously doubt that Sega is just giving Nintendo permission to sell copies of the games without them getting some kind of kick back, probably most of the money. Now they are going to be making money off of the actual original games, not just the franchises.

[byuu]

It's possible but unlikely that Nintendo will attempt to sue / shut down emulators, but they won't have much luck. Most people already have the emulators, and distributing them will just become illicit just like distributing ROMs are now. Even then, development will likely continue "underground", eg by anonymous developers.

There's also no profit in suing a bunch of teenagers for all $500 they have in their bank accounts, not to mention the bad PR they will receive for it. Nintendo doesn't want to look like the RIAA, suing children, I'm quite sure. But I guess we'll soon find out. The courts have traditionally ruled in favor of emulators, excepting DRM/BIOS issues, and the old consoles typically lack DRM functionality, so there is little precedent to reverse their decisions, but it's still very possible that with enough lobbying and money pumped in, Nintendo could reverse the legal position of "unofficial" emulators. Though I would suspect Sony to be far more likely of attempting this tactic than Nintendo.

And so long as Nintendo doesn't sell all previously available content for these systems, there's still justification and reason for emulators to exist. Not to mention all the homebrew development and such over the years.

[Jipcy]

Yeah. About hardware accuracy and such. I was originally thinking that I could/would buy the Wii for the Virtual Console alone. But I'm definitely going to need to play some games on it before I jump in and start buying them.

[Joe Camacho]

IAnd so long as Nintendo doesn't sell all previously available content for these systems, there's still justification and reason for emulators to exist. Not to mention all the homebrew development and such over the years.

I always thought the original purpose, or the purpose that protects devs is that their prime objective is practicing and working to get a program to behave as close as the hardware.

"Playing old games from dead systems" is just a very nice side effect.

So, Emulators can exist as long as someone wants to create software to emulate hardware.

Also, emulator authors can't be held responsible for the actions of other users do with their programs. It's the whole "Gun maker / Gun user" argument.

[creaothceann]

But I guess we'll soon find out. The courts have traditionally ruled in favor of emulators [...] but it's still very possible that with enough lobbying and money pumped in, Nintendo could reverse the legal position of "unofficial" emulators.

Time to start with the pre-cautions then!

Could not find SPC700.rom! Check the path settings!

[Neo Kaiser]

i don't think that emulation will fade with the Wii because as long at someone wants to play a free game emulation will exist. I hope that they release a remake of the original Zelda on the Wii even with the Zelda BS graphics.

[byuu]

Time to start with the pre-cautions then! :o

Could not find SPC700.rom! Check the path settings!

MESS already does this. I have to wonder about that one, though. The IPLROM is only 64 bytes, and arguably virtually any change will break many games. It is also fully readable by software, so software could theoretically read and binary compare to test for the presense of unofficial hardware. I wonder how the courts would feel about that. The judge that made the original ruling about the BIOS obviously didn't have a clue about how emulation works, unfortunately.

However, I actually don't mind so much doing this for the DSP-n data ROMs.

[Nightcrawler]

Reasons why the Virtual Console will NEVER replace emulators.

1. Nintendo released the starting list already. The lineup is PATHETIC. Even if it improves 1000% throughout the console's lifespan, it will still be poor and not include 80% of games.

2. They will never include any Japanese releases nor translate any new games.

3. Pricing information was released. The price is too high in my opinion.

4. They won't allow you to run hacks, translations, or homebrew code.

5. All of the arguments Byuu presented that I didn't duplicate in those 4 points.


I am extremely disappointed in the virtual console. It has ALOT of potential, but they are running into the ground right from the start thus far.

[creaothceann]

[corronchilejano]

Go Nintendo, you can do it

[ReRuss]

Well the virtual console has some advantages , some games would be more fun with the Wii and it's Wiimote vs an emulator , arkanoid being one I'd like to try with a Wiimote

But emulators have loads more advantages atm , even if you only use games you own , they don't cost you (unless you buy dumping hardware) , and there are hacks out there for games people might of played dozens of times (like SMW hacks) , and there's no limit to how many systems can be emulated (unless a system is not emulated well)

Virtual Console won't be replacing my Xbox anytime soon...

[franpa]

im only after the virtual console for N64 games, gamecube games and wii games.... all weaker consoles are emulated more then enough to not need the virtual console granted that id need to actualy test the virtual console prior to saying that its an accurate emulator.

[kode54]

im only after the virtual console for N64 games, gamecube games and wii games

Does not compute.

[paulguy]

Virtual Console will supposedly offer new Wii games available for download. Gamecube I'm not so sure of.

[Jipcy]

Virtual Console will supposedly offer new Wii games available for download. Gamecube I'm not so sure of.

I think what you mean is that there are going to be low(er)-budget games developed specifically for the Virtual Console, much like the Xbox Live Arcade or whatever. I'm looking forward to these myself.

byuu, you need to market your emulator code to Nintendo, so they have something accurate.

But seriously, is there any way to *know* how accurate or good the Virtual Console emulators are going to be?

The only truly limiting factor I see for the Virtual Console emulators is the raw performance of the Wii itself.

[whicker]

byuu, you need to market your emulator code to Nintendo, so they have something accurate.

Why bother, they already have snesticle.

*cough

[franpa]

im only after the virtual console for N64 games, gamecube games and wii games

Does not compute.

why not? i have the Virtual Console for n64 games and as a neat side effect i also incidentally have a Nintendo Wii as well which plays game cube and wii games as well.

[Clements]

im only after the virtual console for N64 games, gamecube games and wii games

Does not compute.

why not? i have the Virtual Console for n64 games and as a neat side effect i also incidentally have a Nintendo Wii as well which plays game cube and wii games as well.

The wording you used suggested that you could download Wii games and Gamecube games via the Virtual Console, which is untrue.

[Deathlike2]

im only after the virtual console for N64 games, gamecube games and wii games

Does not compute.

why not? i have the Virtual Console for n64 games and as a neat side effect i also incidentally have a Nintendo Wii as well which plays game cube and wii games as well.

Why the hell would you emulate Wii Games on the Wii?

Also, it is very very difficult (even for Nintendo) is emulate Gamecube games on the Wii, just simply due to resources. Remember, the resources required to emulate an older systems increases as the complexity of the system to be emulated increases.