Kirby's Dream Land 3 / some general issues with latest build

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:26 am

zSNES v1.51 Windows

Game: Kirby's Dream Land 3 (U) [!]
CRC32:EC8A48F6

System specs: Windows 2000 Professional SP4, build 2195
AMD Sempron 1.61 GHZ processor; 256 MB RAM
ATI Radeon 9200 (128 MB) graphics card / latest official Win2k driver installed
DirectX 9.1c / no conflicts

I was using zSNES v1.42 prior to updating to v1.51. I completely removed all old files and settings, leaving only the ROM and SRAM data intact. First problem was getting Kirby's Dream Land 3 to run without issues. First issue: no transparent water. It was impossible to navigate swimming levels. I'm not sure which graphics layer the water is on, so I guess that's not a very helpful detail. Second issue, random lock-ups. The emulator would freeze and I would have to kill its process via Task Manager.

Any other game I've played (quite a few -- Star Ocean, Super Mario All-Stars, Final Fantasy II, and numerous others) with v1.51 were also prone to freeze-ups. All of my games (excluding patched translations) are known to have good headers.

There was no clear indicator of what caused it, as it just occured at random intervals. I played around with my video settings and other options a bit, but nothing seemed to help. The emulator was also pretty laggy -- games were skipping more frequently and the video wouldn't display smoothly. I deleted it and configured a fresh copy of v1.42. So far, I haven't experienced any problems with v1.42, and will likely continue using it instead of the newer release.

Either way, I figured I would go ahead and mention some of the problems I've had out of the new release, in case there may be some technical issues. But it may have been my configuration. I believe I used the default configuration at first, and then tweaked it a bit after I started having issues, so I'm not entirely certain what happened.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:41 am

The freeze ups, I certainly don't experience. The only thing that comes to mind is that you need a reboot.

It is suggested that you tweak things one at a time to isolate said issue.

Though, the transparant water issue... it sounds like you are using the DOS version for some reason.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:46 am

Deathlike2 wrote:The freeze ups, I certainly don't experience. The only thing that comes to mind is that you need a reboot."

No, it was a persistent problem. I had updated to v1.51 for about a few days, I believe.

It is suggested that you tweak things one at a time to isolate said issue.

Yes. I mostly played around with the video at first, as it seemed like an obvious video issue. I changed the resolution back and forth, all in windowed mode. Later on, I played around with frame skipping and video filters. Nothing seemed to improve the quality or reduce lag. (although, I think some of the options made it worse)

Though, the transparant water issue... it sounds like you are using the DOS version for some reason.

Definitely not.

If you like, I can download the 1.51 build again and run some more tests. Just give me a few suggestions about what to do with the settings, if you have any particular ideas.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:09 am

The only thing that comes to mind is that you might be using savestates generated by 1.42 and loading them with 1.51.. which is definately not recommended... which could be causing the freezing...

I also suggest disabling/reenabling DDraw acceleration and see if that helps.

As for the transparent water, try using the Old Graphics engine (by disabling the New Graphics Engine in Config->Options) and toggle the Alternate Graphics Engine when the Old Graphics engine is disabled.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:12 am

Deathlike2 wrote:The only thing that comes to mind is that you might be using savestates generated by 1.42 and loading them with 1.51.. which is definately not recommended... which could be causing the freezing...

I also suggest disabling/reenabling DDraw acceleration and see if that helps.

As for the transparent water, try using the Old Graphics engine (by disabling the New Graphics Engine in Config->Options) and toggle the Alternate Graphics Engine when the Old Graphics engine is disabled.

I believe I did have savestates from v1.42 intact. I'm not sure.

I'll go ahead and download 1.51, isolate it from my other files and give your suggestions a try.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:19 am

UPDATE: Same problems with the fresh copy of zSNES and Kirby's Dream Land 3. Note that the ROM functions perfectly in v1.42.

The graphics layer in question is BC3 layer. Here's a screenshot:

Disabling the new graphics engine displays the transparency, but causes some strange issues. Kirby will bounce off the water instead of entering it, and randomly teleport up and down if you try to force him in it. The screen also flickers a bit and causes video lag.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:24 am

Have you tried 1.50? To be honest, a very small portion of the graphics code has changed since 1.42. The most significant changes are probably with timing..

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:25 am

Deathlike2 wrote:Have you tried 1.50? To be honest, a very small portion of the graphics code has changed since 1.42.

I don't think so, but I will give it a shot.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:31 am

UPDATE: Same problems persist in v1.50, but slightly worse. When toggling the graphics engine, there is a lot of flickering and slow-down.

Also, I uploaded my v1.42 configuration file so you can have a look at it: http://www.sendspace.com/file/49itl8

The 1.50 - 1.51 configuration files were default when I tested the game.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:08 pm

The cfg file in 1.42 is not that useful to be honest.

What I suggest you do is test your memory with Memtest86 or something like that. This seems to be a memory issue, since the most significant thing done since 1.42 was to deal better with memory management..

1.42 and prior leaked quite a bit of memory (like Win9x would have allowed), and the only conclusion I can come to is that your RAM is bad.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:51 pm

It's definitely not a memory issue. I'm not sure how you would come upon that conclusion.

I'm thinking it has to do with the way 1.50+ handles transparency. When the ROM was tested in 1.42, everything functioned just fine. I also tested in another emulator (SNES9x 1.51) and it worked fine, as well. The memory usage reports of 1.42 doesn't indicate any leaks, as far as I can tell.

Have you tested the ROM, also?

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:13 pm

grendel wrote:It's definitely not a memory issue. I'm not sure how you would come upon that conclusion.

I'm thinking it has to do with the way 1.50+ handles transparency. When the ROM was tested in 1.42, everything functioned just fine. I also tested in another emulator (SNES9x 1.51) and it worked fine, as well. The memory usage reports of 1.42 doesn't indicate any leaks, as far as I can tell.

Have you tested the ROM, also?

I'm referring to the freezing issue specifically, not this game in particular.

Edit: The transparancy is probably emulation related (timing changes are probably related, unfortunately).. but the freezing is not.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:05 pm

Deathlike2 wrote:
grendel wrote:It's definitely not a memory issue. I'm not sure how you would come upon that conclusion.

I'm thinking it has to do with the way 1.50+ handles transparency. When the ROM was tested in 1.42, everything functioned just fine. I also tested in another emulator (SNES9x 1.51) and it worked fine, as well. The memory usage reports of 1.42 doesn't indicate any leaks, as far as I can tell.

Have you tested the ROM, also?
I'm referring to the freezing issue specifically, not this game in particular.

Edit: The transparancy is probably emulation related (timing changes are probably related, unfortunately).. but the freezing is not.

My memory checks out okay. Considering that I don't experience these problems with 1.42, I'm not sure if it's necessarily hardware-related.

I can't recall any problems from my system in general. I do a lot of PC-gaming, pSX emulation and things that are pretty memory-intensive, but they haven't experienced any apparent issues. If it is a memory problem, then it's oddly restricted to zSNES?

creaothceann · Post by **creaothceann** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:34 pm

Kirby 3 uses some undocumented hardware effect, similar to the green water in DKC2.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:39 pm

creaothceann wrote:Kirby 3 uses some undocumented hardware effect, similar to the green water in DKC2.

That was another theory I had, because it was one of the last games to be developed for the system. But again, everything functions perfectly on 1.42. Go figure.

Could it possibly have something to do with changes to the graphics engine in 1.50+? I mean, it does seem odd... And also consider the other glitch, where Kirby can't even enter the water. It's like the entire layer just isn't rendered correctly at all.

creaothceann · Post by **creaothceann** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:43 pm

Grendel wrote:
creaothceann wrote:Kirby 3 uses some undocumented hardware effect, similar to the green water in DKC2.
That was another theory I had, because it was one of the last games to be developed for the system. But again, everything functions perfectly on 1.42.

Have you personally compared the emulation to the hardware? How do you know it was emulated perfectly?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:46 pm

creaothceann wrote:
Grendel wrote:
creaothceann wrote:Kirby 3 uses some undocumented hardware effect, similar to the green water in DKC2.
That was another theory I had, because it was one of the last games to be developed for the system. But again, everything functions perfectly on 1.42.
Have you personally compared the emulation to the hardware? How do you know it was emulated perfectly?

Not sure what you mean by "personally compared." I've predominantly used 1.42 before decided to give 1.51 a try. I've been playing back and forth between the two versions to compare the differences, and 1.42 runs everything flawlessly. 1.51 tends to lock-up only a few minutes into most games, and then there are the transparency / collision issues with Kirby's Dream Land 3.

Deathlike2 · Post by **Deathlike2** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 pm

Grendel wrote:
creaothceann wrote:
Grendel wrote:
creaothceann wrote:Kirby 3 uses some undocumented hardware effect, similar to the green water in DKC2.
That was another theory I had, because it was one of the last games to be developed for the system. But again, everything functions perfectly on 1.42.
Have you personally compared the emulation to the hardware? How do you know it was emulated perfectly?
Not sure what you mean by "personally compared." I've predominantly used 1.42 before decided to give 1.51 a try. I've been playing back and forth between the two versions to compare the differences, and 1.42 runs everything flawlessly. 1.51 tends to lock-up only a few minutes into most games, and then there are the transparency / collision issues with Kirby's Dream Land 3.

creaothceann was asking if you actually played this game on the actual hardware before. This is somewhat relevent because you cannot rely on the behavior of what an older version of ZSNES did.. what happened on the real cart matters most.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:33 pm

Deathlike2 wrote:
Grendel wrote:
creaothceann wrote:
Grendel wrote:
creaothceann wrote:Kirby 3 uses some undocumented hardware effect, similar to the green water in DKC2.
That was another theory I had, because it was one of the last games to be developed for the system. But again, everything functions perfectly on 1.42.
Have you personally compared the emulation to the hardware? How do you know it was emulated perfectly?
Not sure what you mean by "personally compared." I've predominantly used 1.42 before decided to give 1.51 a try. I've been playing back and forth between the two versions to compare the differences, and 1.42 runs everything flawlessly. 1.51 tends to lock-up only a few minutes into most games, and then there are the transparency / collision issues with Kirby's Dream Land 3.
creaothceann was asking if you actually played this game on the actual hardware before. This is somewhat relevent because you cannot rely on the behavior of what an older version of ZSNES did.. what happened on the real cart matters most.

Only a few of these games. Kirby's Dream Land 3 not included. So let me rephrase, "Kirby's Dream Land 3 plays great on 1.42, as compared to 1.51." Better?

creaothceann · Post by **creaothceann** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:21 pm

Yes.

But the ZSNES team focuses on correctness instead of playability, and previous releases are mostly less hardware accurate. Some day in the future ZSNES will emulate the effect correctly; until then you'll have to use the version that gives the best results for you.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:29 pm

creaothceann wrote:Yes.

But the ZSNES team focuses on correctness instead of playability, and previous releases are mostly less hardware accurate. Some day in the future ZSNES will emulate the effect correctly; until then you'll have to use the version that gives the best results for you.

Naturally, but I brought this up in the event that it may be a technical issue. After all, it's strange for the emulator to display the transparency without issue in one version, and then lack the functionality entirely in the next.

It's something to look into. Also, it wouldn't hurt if someone else could give this game a test run, as well. (just to be sure it's not hardware-specific)

Post by **grinvader** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:24 pm

SA-1 game... lots of shit broken with timing revisions... don't expect it to work... same issue than SMRPG...
Water transparency is done through pseudohires... which zsnes doesn't do correctly... used to use a hack to make it work with kirby... but never worked with Jurassic Park, for example...
Known issues... end of thread...

P.S.... I didn't lock this... Link did... flame him... stupid...