Mystic Balloon

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Fri May 23, 2008 11:34 pm

Okay, so this is a Japanese puzzle game. Derrick translated it to English. I've been trying to solve stage 20 for a very long time now ... lately, my co-workers have gotten in on it, and are also all unable to.

I'm pretty much at wits end with it. I know it's cheating, but I was hoping one of the board geniuses here could lend me a hand.

I've posted the game here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?qnm4jw4gxzs

It contains a save file that has all levels unlocked, for those who want to jump straight to 20.

If anyone can solve it, I'd be very grateful :D

funkyass · Post by **funkyass** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:09 am

media fire dislikes spaces in file names.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:24 am

Silly. Just rename it Mystic.zip, and it should work.

mil · Post by **mil** » Sat May 24, 2008 4:13 am

I'll see what I can do, byuu. Derrick, this fellow, and I are the only three English speaking experts on Mystic Balloon that I know of. Not that being endowed with such exclusive skill really means anything; the game is just not that popular. For me, the hardest stages of the game were stages 6, 36, and 49.

I've been trying to solve stage 20 for a very long time now ... lately, my co-workers have gotten in on it, and are also all unable to.

Just curious, but how long? The most difficult Mystic Balloon stage I ever solved was "domino3.krm." It's supposedly the last puzzle the creator of Mystic Balloon ever made. It can be found among the first 100 user-created levels on Domino's website. If you value your sanity, stay the hell away from it. The most difficult puzzles in Mystic Balloon usually take me two days tops. "domino3" took me three weeks. It got to the point where I became constantly reminded of the comprehensive and exhaustive proof in my mind that the blasted level just couldn't be beaten. I have a deep-seated feeling that no Mystic Balloon stage made after that one could ever surpass the ingenious and psychotic evilness that is that level. Which reminds me, I submitted a level called "Cloud Pachinko" to Derrick's website. Don't play that one either.

Anyway, I've been on a recent Eggerland kick trying to finish every puzzle in the official series, which was a very bad idea in retrospect, and so my Mystic Balloon skills have noticeably atrophied. I'll give it a shot though. But hmm, it looks like you solved all of the other puzzles in the game. Are you really sure you want to know?

Edit: Finished the level. I can upload a video of the solution if you wish. Still, I must stress that if you have only solved around 20 levels or so up to this point and that unlock save you got was from Derrick, you really shouldn't ask for the solution. There are far more worse puzzles than this among the 55 originals. Puzzles which can easily frustrate just about anyone and thus cause them to seek a solution elsewhere. Part of the fun with Mystic Balloon is not using an FAQ.

franpa · Post by **franpa** » Sat May 24, 2008 4:37 am

downloaded perfectly fine from mediafire, just had to add the zip extension after it downloaded.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sat May 24, 2008 6:01 am

I have a deep-seated feeling that no Mystic Balloon stage made after that one could ever surpass the ingenious and psychotic evilness that is that level.

Hmm?

http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-For ... 1-050.html

domino3 seems to have a difficulty of "only" seven stars.
Of course, 17 has 5 stars, and that took me a week and a half.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-For ... 1-900.html

kamaya10 and kamaya11 have twelve stars. You should try those if you're ever feeling really masochist :P

But hmm, it looks like you solved all of the other puzzles in the game. Are you really sure you want to know?

I didn't solve them all. I have 27 of 55 levels beaten. 1-19 and one level for each other block just to unlock up to 50. I don't intend to clear them all.

Anyway, I really don't want to ruin the fun, but at the same time ... it's really not fun at all anymore. I'm sorry I ever touched the game, to be honest. Level 36 is just sickening, I've tried that level about 400 times now, and I can never get up the first ladder after getting the last green orb.

I really don't understand why the default game had to be this complex. I like a challenge, not a MENSA entrance exam. But I'll admit that I'm really not all that intelligent. Most of my accomplishments come from persistence, and this isn't a game that lends itself to that.

As for stage 20 ... I've spent about four days on it, but the problem is that I literally can't think of anything else to try.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-For ... ecret.html

As you'll see on that page, or here:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-For ... tage20.jpg

I can solve the puzzle in that JPEG easily. And he rates that as four star difficulty.

It looks like between the original version(s) and 1.38, domino added an extra green orb to the top right of the puzzle. In doing so, he blocked the ability to walk and throw the balloon off the edge and use it to get to the right side of the map.

I've gotten so annoyed by this that I've started to write a physics simulator to try and mathematically prove the level is not solvable. Problem is I know nothing about AI coding, so I'll probably waste weeks on this if I don't ask for help. Honestly, I know the puzzle is solvable, but I'm at wits' end.

If you'd prefer, I can give you my proofs and you can show me which one is wrong. I might be able to solve it with that ...

To get to the right-hand ladder, you need two balloons on the right-hand side of the map. The right-most orb stops you from throwing it off the third cloud to do it in one. You have two options:
A) use the block from the left as well to get across.
B) go to the left first.

A) you can now get the extra spring and block. You can get the three balloons lined up in a row, and use the extra spring to get the green orb on the right. But you cannot get the spring into the pit in the middle.
Now, to get to the left-hand side, you can pick up two balloons. One to fill the hole so you can walk across, and one to set on the left-most ice block. You can now jump across to the left.
Now you have to drop the spring first. If you throw it down, you can never get the leftmost orb. If you drop with it, you're forced to throw it in the same spot anyway due to the direction belt pushing you right. There's nothing you can do with the balloon at the top left, if you throw it on top of the spring, you still can't get the orb. And if you jump onto the spring with it, you get stuck.
Thus, by taking path A, you can never solve the puzzle.

B) if you want the left orb, the only way to do that is to throw a balloon off the left-most cloud. This gives you the ability to land with the spring onto the block below, and then throw the spring right, and the balloon at the top left you can drop down with and throw it left one to get the orb. But now you can only grab one item from the left two balloons and one spring. And that's needed to fill in the pit. Thus, you only have one block on the right-hand side, so you can no longer get to the right-hand side of the screen.

See, any balloon on the fifth-directional arrow from the left (eg the very first one moving right) gets stuck there forever. You try and grab it but the second arrow pushes you back away from it.
Thus, path B also results in an unsolvable puzzle.

C) a slight variation. You can throw the left block onto the sixth directional arrow, eg the second right arrow. From here, you can drop down with the spring and get the orb. But you run into the same problem. You still can't get one block to fill in the pit, and another to the right-hand side of the screen. But without that, you can never reach the left.

D) so you think, okay well what if I did the right side first, and then got a balloon there on the left? Well, you can't do it. The ice pushes you back so that you can't throw it onto the sixth directional block.
If you could get the right-hand side spring into the pit and walk a block there, it would propel you up and you could drop it there. But there's no way to get the right-hand spring into that pit. The balloons you need to get across block off that path. And with only two of them, you can't walk the spring across them.

Anyway, sorry for the length of this post. And I really appreciate any help you can provide. If you can't solve it or don't have time, I understand. Many thanks in advance either way :D

Edit: Finished the level.

Edit: good lord, you have to be kidding me x.x
So it definitely is solvable ... madness. Madness!

Sigh ... I just don't know. It's up to you, then, if you want to help out or not. Know it's possible is at least a huge help, as would knowing which of my proofs were wrong. Either way, I'm done after level 20. Deleting the game. This is clearly over my intelligence level, I've no shame admitting that.

Part of the fun with Mystic Balloon is the very fact that there is no FAQ out there.

I was actually planning on posting an FAQ for levels 1-20. There's really no point in a total 55-level walkthrough, since the timing levels amount to pure endless repetition, eg 36. We both know exactly how to solve it, but it takes thousands of tries. An FAQ is worthless for that.

But yeah, you're right about it ruining the fun of the game to do that. So I probably shouldn't bother.

mil · Post by **mil** » Sat May 24, 2008 6:55 am

It looks like between the original version(s) and 1.38, domino added an extra green orb to the top right of the puzzle. In doing so, he blocked the ability to walk and throw the balloon off the edge and use it to get to the right side of the map.

Heh, you got it. That's what makes the level hard. That one damn green orb. At least, that's what I thought at first...

Really, level 20 relies on only two things to trip you up.

1) Springs
2) Clouds (which is typically the main reason Mystic Balloon is frustratingly difficult)

Hmm?

http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-For ... 1-050.html

domino3 seems to have a difficulty of "only" seven stars.
Of course, 17 has 5 stars, and that took me a week and a half.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/SilkRoad-For ... 1-900.html

kamaya10 and kamaya11 have twelve stars. You should try those if you're ever feeling really masochist

Ooh! A new contender during the time I've been absent. Thanks for the information!

That figures though. A goddamn pattern master. This "kamaya" creates Mystic Balloon levels backwards as many renowned difficult puzzle authors do. Essentially, this person creates a pattern that looks pretty and is reflected across the stage, up to down, or right to left. They then play-test the pattern to see if it is actually solvable. Then, they add minor elements to make the pattern more and more difficult to the point of insanity.

I ultimately don't care for the way these people make levels because a large part of the puzzle they make isn't their work. It's just a pattern and Mystic Balloon was made in such a way that patterned levels immensely boost its difficulty. You're seeing it yourself with this very level 20. Do you start by solving right or do you start by solving left? You're torn by thinking back and forth between seeing the right way as wrong and the left way as wrong. Thus, you don't see the entire solution, just large pieces of it split by a thin line, a small center detail you are missing.

1st proof:

o get to the right-hand ladder, you need two balloons on the right-hand side of the map. The right-most orb stops you from throwing it off the third cloud to do it in one. You have two options:
A) use the block from the left as well to get across.
B) go to the left first.

A) you can now get the extra spring and block. You can get the three balloons lined up in a row, and use the extra spring to get the green orb on the right. But you cannot get the spring into the pit in the middle.
Now, to get to the left-hand side, you can pick up two balloons. One to fill the hole so you can walk across, and one to set on the left-most ice block. You can now jump across to the left.
Now you have to drop the spring first. If you throw it down, you can never get the leftmost orb. If you drop with it, you're forced to throw it in the same spot anyway due to the direction belt pushing you right. There's nothing you can do with the balloon at the top left, if you throw it on top of the spring, you still can't get the orb. And if you jump onto the spring with it, you get stuck.
Thus, by taking path A, you can never solve the puzzle.

Basically correct.

B) if you want the left orb, the only way to do that is to throw a balloon off the left-most cloud.

Incorrect.

This gives you the ability to land with the spring onto the block below, and then throw the spring right, and the balloon at the top left you can drop down with and throw it left one to get the orb. But now you can only grab one item from the left two balloons and one spring. And that's needed to fill in the pit. Thus, you only have one block on the right-hand side, so you can no longer get to the right-hand side of the screen.

But you're thinking in the right direction.

But there's no way to get the right-hand spring into that pit.

Correct. So that leaves...

I'm going to edit this post with an orb circled on the level's picture to provide an extra hint.

I like a challenge, not a MENSA entrance exam. But I'll admit that I'm really not all that intelligent. Most of my accomplishments come from persistence, and this isn't a game that lends itself to that.

Nah, most of Mystic Balloon's difficulty is assuaged by spotting and exploiting hidden little rules. It's just perspectival challenge. Your intelligence lies in a much higher field of relevance.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sat May 24, 2008 7:25 am

B) if you want the left orb, the only way to do that is to throw a balloon off the left-most cloud -- Incorrect.

True, you can also get it by placing a block on the sixth directional arrow, second right one. Then you can jump left past it, get the spring and throw it to the left. That puts the spring immediately under the wall brick. You can bounce, move left and get it.

The only way to get a block on the sixth directional arrow is to use one of the two balloons on the clouds.

But you're right back to square one. Now your only option is to throw the top-left balloon straight down, where it will get stuck on the fifth arrow, the first right one from the left. That means you only have one block that you can move on the left-hand side, which is only enough to fill in the pit. And you can't get to the right with just one block ...

---

If I throw the spring down, it's the only way I can get the top-left balloon across to fill in the pit, needed to get to the right-hand side, then I get stuck here:

<spoiler removed>

If I throw the spring left, then I end up getting stuck on the left-hand side, with no way to get to the right:

<spoiler removed>

I'm unable to think of any other possible moves other than the aforementioned method of getting one of the two cloud balloons onto the fifth directional arrow, which is what I went over previously, and it seems we agree that it's not solvable that way, either.

mil · Post by **mil** » Sat May 24, 2008 7:57 am

Save this one for a little later.

True, you can also get it by placing a block on the sixth directional arrow, second right one. Then you can jump left past it, get the spring and throw it to the left. That puts the spring immediately under the wall brick. You can bounce, move left and get it.

Not a good idea. There is another way.

But you're right back to square one. Now your only option is to throw the top-left balloon straight down, where it will get stuck on the fifth arrow, the first right one from the left. That means you only have one block that you can move on the left-hand side, which is only enough to fill in the pit. And you can't get to the right with just one block ...

You certainly don't want a block in the pit but you do need something there...

Regarding stage 36, the timing stage which you know how to beat but just can't get it right, try a slightly different non-intuitive way. For some odd reason, Domino made jumping and falling take up more time than climbing up and climbing down. Mystic Balloon levels are never really a test of dexterity or reflexes. Just little hidden rules, a couple of which are completely stupid such as this one.

By the way, byuu, it has been really nice talking to you about Mystic Balloon. There are so very few people who really try and learn the nuances of this game and I appreciate your persistence.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:12 am

Save this one for a little later.

It's not helping :(

Using it to go left doesn't really do anything productive. I still can't get to the right as soon as I grab the left-most orb. It's a death sentence. Left orb = unable to reach right ladder.

<spoiler removed>

I take it you were meaning to use it as a leverage over the pit ... it works for one block, but that just restores the right block I had to use to make the platform in the first place. I still can't get the left orb.

<spoiler removed>

If I move that right balloon over to the left, then I can get both balloons over to the right, but I still can't get the left orb now. Once I throw that spring left after the drop, I'm done for every time.

You certainly don't want a block in the pit but you do need something there...

... that only leaves the spring. I want a spring there? :/

<spoiler removed>

Not having any luck there, either ...

By the way, byuu, it has been really nice talking to you about Mystic Balloon. There are so very few people who really try and learn the nuances of this game and I appreciate your persistence.

Persistence is the only thing I'm good at. But this game is really pushing me to my limits :(

I really appreciate the help from you as well. Derrick wants nothing to do with the game and won't help me out at all, and nobody else I try and talk into playing can even solve stage 6, let alone 20.

mil · Post by **mil** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:39 am

1st picture:

Nice. Umm, alright. Who says you have to get that far left orb so soon? Why, it should be the last one you get.

2nd picture:

Well done. Well done. Yes, leverage.

3rd picture:

Good, good. You just forgot something is all. Restart and it will reappear above your head. Yes, you can move all three of those blocks to the left, can you not?

... that only leaves the spring. I want a spring there? :/

You can get it in there, yes?

and nobody else I try and talk into playing can even solve stage 6, let alone 20.

Yeah, stage 6 was one of the "revelation" stages for me. It took me three days.

That's basically how you beat the game. You confront a few really hard stages and learn the little rules from your revelations you acquire during those stages. It's different for everybody (e.g. look at the fools who rated domino2 as being harder than 3) and some people just think the more difficult levels are the ones that look more intimidating even though they haven't played through them (floppy download is not that hard).

By the way, I edited my post above concerning stage 36.

Regarding stage 36, the timing stage which you know how to beat but just can't get it right, try a slightly different non-intuitive way. For some odd reason, Domino made jumping and falling take up more time than climbing up and climbing down. Mystic Balloon levels are never really a test of dexterity or reflexes. Just little hidden rules, a couple of which are completely stupid such as this one.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:57 am

Finally. Oh man. That wasn't just hard ... that was absolutely sadistic.

I would have never figured that out without your help. I really, really appreciate it.

I'm not sure that I want to continue at this point. I'm happy to leave on a high note (*). Besides, I didn't clear 20 on my own anyway. Not saying I'm regretful to have asked for help. I really, truly was going to give up and not try again. I'm really happy to finally know the solution now. Many, many thanks.

As always, please let me know if I can return the favor.

(* levels clear: 1-19, 20 (with help), 22, 25, 32, 34, 37, 41, 46, 55. My favorite was 37. I saw right through that one ;)

If you were to say I get half-credit on level 20, then I've finished exactly half of the game. The easiest half, but half. That's good enough for me :D
It's an honor to make it half as far as you, Derrick and Reuche(?).

Yeah, stage 6 was one of the "revelation" stages for me. It took me three days.

Not counting 20 ... my worst so far was 17, then 6, then 14. I just couldn't see the answer jumping out at me the whole time ...

And yeah, it had one of those tricks you're talking about. You need to know that bouncing off a spring and smacking into another on top of you will let you walk on the ladder's top ... that wasn't at all obvious to me.

By the way, I edited my post above concerning stage 36.

Neat. I kind of figured the ladder climbing would be the way to go. Maybe I'll keep picking at it. The Japanese guy whose site I linked to earlier seemed convinced that it was the absolute hardest stage in the entire game, sans the ~1,200 add-on levels, of course.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:17 pm

Meh, well, I always want to give up on difficult challenges, but as I'm sure everyone who reads my rants know -- I never can.

I finally finished all 55 levels. Major spoilers for stage 50:
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/2832/stage50akg8.png
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/4236/stage50bsd7.png

Stage 36:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2548/stage36lx1.png

Not shown: 51 - 55's bonus stages were all much easier than this level, though 54 was pretty tricky.

So I guess that makes me the fourth English speaker to ever beat this game; after Derrick, mil and reuche. I concur that 36 is the worst level. Not because of its intellectual challenge, but because the game's controls suck and it's pure timing luck with zero strategy. Having to replay it ~1,000 times really sucks.

mil · Post by **mil** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:42 am

Congratulations! Well done!

A shame Derrick's local stage submission hasn't been working for quite some time. I've been meaning to share some easy stages which pretty much lose their existence among the absurd amount of upload traffic which Domino's public puzzle submission board experiences (already 7 stages submitted just today). Anyways byuu, I'd be happy to play any levels you might make. Hard or not.

I concur that 36 is the worst level. Not because of its intellectual challenge, but because the game's controls suck and it's pure timing luck with zero strategy. Having to replay it ~1,000 times really sucks.

Yeah, the game should definitely have built-in gamepad support along with a far less awkward jumping mechanic. Level 36 wasn't nearly that bad for me but then again, I had trouble with stage 6 for a lot longer time than most.

Hmm, "timing luck" doesn't actually have much to do with stage 36. I think I'll make a video demonstrating why the stage is straightforward once you just know "how" to do it. Usually I can return to stage 36 and beat it within four tries or less. I must agree though that the stage is poorly designed due to some of the completely idiotic and non-intuitive strategy involved.

Also, have you wondered yet why the game is called Mystic Balloon? The mystery escapes me.

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:59 am

Anyways byuu, I'd be happy to play any levels you might make. Hard or not.

That sounds like a lot of fun! Perhaps I'll try my hand at making a puzzle or two, and try some of yours out :)

There's no way in hell I'm touching the 1,200 levels on domino's site. I'd be dead before I got halfway through them. But a few here and there sound like a lot of fun.

Care to post your favorite hand-made level? :)

Level 36 wasn't nearly that bad for me but then again, I had trouble with stage 6 for a lot longer time than most.

Honestly, yeah, you're right about 36. I just went back and cleared 36 two more times in about three dozen tries. Well, that's good. I can clear it at home on my save there. Been trying to clear the whole game on my own save, rather than Derrick's; even though I've already cleared all the levels anyway. Just for prosperity's sake, I guess.

Surprisingly, levels 49, 50 and 54 were pretty easy for me. They were supposed to be the most complex. I guess I just got used to the game's hidden mechanics like the stand on a spring trick for 49 (needed that for 17.)

Levels 17 and 20 were easily the worst for me.

Also, have you wondered yet why the game is called Mystic Balloon? The mystery escapes me.

Maybe it's supposed to be "Misty Coup Bar Room," and we're just failing to transliterate it properly :)

Post by **grinvader** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:34 pm

byuu wrote:Meh, well, I always want to give up on difficult challenges, but as I'm sure everyone who reads my rants know -- I never can.

Just wondering, you've never played touhou games, have you ? >:D

byuu · Post by **byuu** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:54 pm

Just wondering, you've never played touhou games, have you ? >:D

Heh, nope. And I honestly don't want to, especially if you're implying it's difficult even for you. I'd stand no chance in hell :P

I kind of regret even touching MB, honestly. While a fun challenge, it took up way too much time that could've been better spent elsewhere.

And wow, I was looking through those extra 1,200 stages. They make the main game look like child's play ... the horror, the horror ...

mil · Post by **mil** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:09 am

Apologies for the delay. Here are the stages. I would've avoided the megaupload overkill but the divShare file I uploaded isn't working too well. If you want it uploaded somewhere else, just name the file host.

Care to post your favorite hand-made level?

Actually, that would be "cloud pachinko." That level is downright devious. In fact, about a month ago I recently tried to beat cloud pachinko again and only managed after about 30 tries. Sure, I was rusty with my Mystic Balloon skills and hadn't played the game in over a year, but seeing how I made the level in the first place, I don't think that's a valid excuse. I'd suggest loading it up to crack a forced smile and then delete the stage from your harddrive forever. Seriously, do not waste your time on it.

Fortunately, all of the other stages I have made are very reasonable; some of them absurdly easy. Oh, and the "edit" stage is not of my making but is a tweaked version of one of the puzzle screenshots found on Derrick's Mystic Balloon page. I don't know if he made it or he just messed around with someone else's level. That "edit" stage is probably the best of the bunch as it provides both an easy and slightly challenging experience.

Maybe it's supposed to be "Misty Coup Bar Room," and we're just failing to transliterate it properly

Heh, oddly enough there are actually balloons in the game but you would never guess that the pink, green, and blue blocks you move around are balloons. I mean, they don't pop, they don't float, and they are not round. They're just blocks Mystia can carry over her head. Which I suppose explains why they don't crush her skull in when they land on her but other than that, they have no balloon qualities whatsoever. Which makes them "mystic" balloons I guess.

And wow, I was looking through those extra 1,200 stages. They make the main game look like child's play ... the horror, the horror ...

Yeah, it gets to be kind of depressing when your whole goal in playing a level is besting your high-score for # of green orbs you collected yesterday.