The Legend of Zelda (Probably not a bug)

[Palin]

NSRT v3.3 RC2 - Nach's SNES ROM Tools

---------------------Internal ROM Info----------------------
File: /Program Files/ZSNES/Games/Legend of Zelda, The - A Link to the Past (U).swc
Name: THE LEGEND OF ZELDA Company: Nintendo
Header: SWC Bank: LoROM
Interleaved: No SRAM: 64 Kb
Type: Normal + Batt ROM: 8 Mb
Country: USA Video: NTSC
ROM Speed: 200ns (SlowROM) Revision: 1.0
Checksum: Good 0xAF0D CRC32: 777AAC2F
MD5: 608C22B8FF930C62DC2DE54BCD6EBA72


I was using the 11/7 WIP to play Zelda and I just reached the tower at the end of the game. There's a puzzle where you have to walk over a pit on a series of invisible tiles and I noticed something. Looking at my LCD from the edge the tiles aren't actually invisible. It's possible to see not-quite black lines around the edges. Is this a problem with colors in ZSNES or is this accurate emulation? I don't have my SNES on me to check to see if the original game was like this.

[adventure_of_link]

The only way you could see the invisible tiles on a real cart is if you used Ether, and they'll come up during the spell cast, and you'd have to memorize where the tiles are so you can make an informed decision as where to go next.

If you're in Ganon's Castle, there's a couple places where you light the torch and the invisble patchs come up for a short time.

I used to play this game a WHOLE lot, so I'd know. :p

[grinvader]

A screenshot would help.

[Palin]

Sorry for the large file size, I had to save it uncompressed or else it would lose some color depth. The image on the top is the default tile puzzle when invisible. On the bottom I've lit the torch and made the tiles visible. On my recent playthrough I noticed that even when the tiles are invisible it's still possible to see a faint outline. When I checked it in an image editor it told me that the black background was actually #000400 and the edges of the invisible tiles were #000000. You might have to zoom in to see the difference between the two colors. I only noticed it because I glanced at my LCD from an angle. I just wanted to confirm that there isn't a problem with the colors in ZSNES. For all I know it was already like that in the original game.

[Aerdan]

EDIT: Aerdan tend to be very cross in the morning, but it is still a good idea to use pngcrush, if only to squeeze out a ilttle more compression.

[blackmyst]

After upping the brightness and contrast of your image I can see it, but to the naked eye it's not really visible, especially seeing as how this game was played on a TV, where you don't see half the color differences you do on a PC LCD screen (one of the reasons why SNES games are only meant to be played on CRT TV's - lessening the "color bands" effect).

Of course, I don't know if it actually is a bug, but I get the feeling it was that way on the console. I guess the only way to be sure would be to use a TV capture card and a real SNES, and enhance the image.

[Palin]

Get a decent image editor and/or pngcrush and don't give me that shit about 'lossy if compressed', because it's only lossy if your editor sucks the cock, which it apparently does.

Capiche?

*scratches head*

I was using Adobe Photoshop CS (8.0) and I used PNG-24 instead of PNG-8 because the compression was deciding to combine #000000 and #000400 into one color. Usually this would be fine being that the visual difference between those two is nil, but it defeated the whole point of posting the screenshot.

Of course, I don't know if it actually is a bug, but I get the feeling it was that way on the console. I guess the only way to be sure would be to use a TV capture card and a real SNES, and enhance the image.

That's what I was thinking. I figured it would be easier to ask the devs then to get ahold of my old SNES and a capture card.

[Aerdan]

Ever thought to try PNG-16? :p

[Palin]

Fine, I replaced the 144k file with a 45k optimized png that still has the two particular shades of black. I did this just because I love Aerdan. :p

[creaothceann]

You could've just used ZSNES' screenshot feature (via F1 menu / hotkey).

[Palin]

Seriously, just forget about how I got the images, all I wanted to prove is that there're two shades of black. Besides, I'm pretty sure that ZSNES saves screenshots as uncompressed bitmaps. So the filesize would have been larger anyways.

[Deathlike2]

Besides, I'm pretty sure that ZSNES saves screenshots as uncompressed bitmaps.

Perhaps it is not documented very well.. but when you are in the F1 menu.. and you select "Image Format"... you can flip between BMP and PNG...

I don't understand why PNG is not enabled by default though.

[rumrum]

I can see them...

[badinsults]

Oh for crying out loud, shut the fuck up Aerdan.


"The rod up that guy's ass must have a rod up its ass".



At any rate, I don't recall the path being visible on the real snes, but then again TV picture quality isn't nearly as clear as on a monitor. Plus if your TV isn't set properly, slight differences in colour may not be noticable (for instance, the hidden tunnels in FF2).

[Lizking]

anyway,
Chances are it's supposed to be like that. the color difference is so slight that theres no way anybody would be able to notice it on a TV made in 1992

[Nach]

Certain platforms being utterly shitty.

*coughDOScough*

DOS support PNG last I checked.

[grinvader]

Ok, I checked carefully on the real hardware and the (F) ROM doesn't have this subtle difference. The background is exactly of the same colour as the platform when it is invisible.

[Nach]

Ok, I checked carefully on the real hardware and the (F) ROM doesn't have this subtle difference. The background is exactly of the same colour as the platform when it is invisible.

Did you play with the contrast when you got up to that part to be 100% certain?

[byuu]

Adding my two cents.

This isn't based on any real proof, but... 000000 -> 000400 means green is set to 0 on one, set to 1 on the other (BGR555 format).
One of the things Overload's palette color curve did was make the dark half of the palette curve biased towards darker colors. This result made palette colors 0 and 1 end up as 0.
The reason I bring it up is because the color curve option looks a hell of a lot closer to TV output (a little darker, but less so than the before is brighter). It might be a good idea to add it to ZSNES too, its a trivial addition and would eliminate this problem.
The effect is way more noticeable on CRTs than LCD panels, btw.

[grinvader]

Did you play with the contrast when you got up to that part to be 100% certain?

I checked carefully

Pretty much, yeah.

All tones for hyperbright to ultradark yield the exact same colours for background and platform. And since I can see this difference easily, I could've seen it on my TV.

byuu, I do not believe a post-rendering colour filter would help. If the colours are supposed to be the same then it's probably a bug in zsnes (if the U version is the same as the F one on this stuff).
Of course now to have a scientific approach I should play LttP in bsnes and see what's up without the colour curve - I'll do it eventually...

[Baldho]

Plus if your TV isn't set properly, slight differences in colour may not be noticable (for instance, the hidden tunnels in FF2).

anyway,
Chances are it's supposed to be like that. the color difference is so slight that theres no way anybody would be able to notice it on a TV made in 1992

I run ZSnes on my Sony Trinitron made around that year, and I can see the hidden tunnels in FF2. And I find the difference pretty obvious.

[grinvader]

The FF2u 'secret' tunnels are secret only in the real FF4.
FF4 easytype and FF2u both have clearly visible colour changes to point out the "secrets".
It's supposed to be seen.

Not the LttP platforms.