Cliches in video games (particularly in the 8-16bit era)

[Snark]

You know, stuff that are either stereotypical to video games or weird stuff you only find in them. Note that this is not a "OMG tath is n0t possible in real life!!1!" thread or anything like that. I understand they may be sometimes preferable from a gameplay or coding perspective. Just something that's anecdotically interesting:

Anyway, a few I can think of right now.


Weird physic behavior.

- Change direction in mid-air.
Obviously not possible under normal circumstances. Good example is in Super Mario 3. Note that in the first Super Mario, you had more limited, more realistic "air control" capabilities. edit: The first few Castlevanias had this correctly, but it does make for more harder gameplay.

- While on a moving platform. This one is a classic, and is a bit funny. Obviously if someone were to jump while on a moving platform, your body would naturally follow the motion of the platform.There ARE a few older games that respected that I think.
But instead, if you jump without pressing any directions, you would stop to a halt, most likely falling to you dead (Megaman for example)


Just plain weird

-The bizzard physical rule which state that you can be shot with a heavy machine gun during a battle scene (in RPGs) without so much as flinching BUT if you were to be shot by an ordinary gun or stab by a sword/knife during a story sequence, you would most certainly die or get seriously wounded and so, forced to quit the party... (and like I said, I'm not saying it takes away from the game or anything) The Final Fantasy serie is particularly heavy on this rule.



-the famous silent protagonist character who for some reasons, can only utter 'yes' or 'no' (obviously, something that appear mostly due to older games limitations)


edit: One of my favorites:

-Huge rewards for little deeds

* "Oh, could you help me pick up that newspaper, young man? Thank you. For your kindness I will give you an item that will grant you eternal life" or something to that effect.



Any other ones?

[blackmyst]

Did a glitch in the phpBB somehow unearth a post out of 1997?

[Deathlike2]

IIRC, there was a site documenting such cliches.

[darkbenny]

ninja's kidnapping el presidente

[Gil_Hamilton]

-the famous silent protagonist character who for some reasons, can only utter 'yes' or 'no' (obviously, something that appear mostly due to older games limitations)

*sighs*
How can people miss the point so badly.

A lot of silent protagonists exist because the authors explicitly CHOSE not to give the characters dialog.
Look at Chrono Trigger, or Lunar: The Silver Star. Both games featured MASSIVE amounts of party character speech, but perhaps 5 words for the lead between them(not counting one of CT's out-of-continuity endings).
The logic being that since the main character is supposed to be the player's game-world avatar, their dialog should be supplied by the player.

It doesn't work well due to the limited interaction available in JRPGs, but it's something.


Many of the older games were dungeon crawlers. Your characters needed no personality, as they were merely killing machines with eyes.
This form of silent protagonist is still in common usage outside of RPGs, but usually goes unnoticed since talkiness is less prevalent in general in those games.

[Snark]

-the famous silent protagonist character who for some reasons, can only utter 'yes' or 'no' (obviously, something that appear mostly due to older games limitations)

*sighs*
How can people miss the point so badly.

A lot of silent protagonists exist because the authors explicitly CHOSE not to give the characters dialog.

I know that, I didn't missed the point. When I said " who for some reasons, can only utter 'yes' or 'no' " it was tongue in cheek. of course.

It's obvious they chose to keep Link a silent character in the recent Zeldas (and the continuing tradition of not choosing voice dialogues is nice imo). Because that's the style the creators wanted for the game.

I'm just saying in some of the earliest games, technical limitations may have played an important role. On more recent systems it just comes down to developper choices I agree.

[sweener2001]

it wasn't a technical limitation back then either. in your earliest games, no one talked, so the point's moot.

that's what he's saying.

and you forgot exploding barrels.

[blackmyst]

Earliest games? What generation are we talking here? Any game that can output text can have the protagonist say stuff. Which even includes the very first text adventures, before graphics. Ascribing something like that to technical limitations is very silly indeed.


Edit: yeah what he said.

[FitzRoy]

Birthrights: You are the chosen one and it is your destiny to save the world from evil. (So I can just stop trying, right?....)

Saving princesses, slaying dragons, and other chivalric crap.

Shallow antagonists who simply want to destroy the world and not reshape it according to some ideology.

Powerful artifacts guarded by vastly insufficient defenses.

Secondary characters dying and not staying dead.

But the biggest cliche of all... Japanese RPGs that begin with you waking up from your bed.

[Gil_Hamilton]

-the famous silent protagonist character who for some reasons, can only utter 'yes' or 'no' (obviously, something that appear mostly due to older games limitations)

*sighs*
How can people miss the point so badly.

A lot of silent protagonists exist because the authors explicitly CHOSE not to give the characters dialog.

I know that, I didn't missed the point. When I said " who for some reasons, can only utter 'yes' or 'no' " it was tongue in cheek. of course.

It's obvious they chose to keep Link a silent character in the recent Zeldas (and the continuing tradition of not choosing voice dialogues is nice imo). Because that's the style the creators wanted for the game.

I'm just saying in some of the earliest games, technical limitations may have played an important role. On more recent systems it just comes down to developper choices I agree.

Actually, you said it appears "mostly due to older games' limitations."
That implies that the new games that do it are doing it as an emulation of the older games' style.

And I don't know which "earliest" games you mean. By the time there WAS character dialog, we'd advanced well beyond the point that technical limitations prevented player character speech.

Hell, if you can output digitized speech samples on a 2600, anything is possible.

[Snark]

-the famous silent protagonist character who for some reasons, can only utter 'yes' or 'no' (obviously, something that appear mostly due to older games limitations)

*sighs*
How can people miss the point so badly.

A lot of silent protagonists exist because the authors explicitly CHOSE not to give the characters dialog.

I know that, I didn't missed the point. When I said " who for some reasons, can only utter 'yes' or 'no' " it was tongue in cheek. of course.

It's obvious they chose to keep Link a silent character in the recent Zeldas (and the continuing tradition of not choosing voice dialogues is nice imo). Because that's the style the creators wanted for the game.

I'm just saying in some of the earliest games, technical limitations may have played an important role. On more recent systems it just comes down to developper choices I agree.

Actually, you said it appears "mostly due to older games' limitations."
That implies that the new games that do it are doing it as an emulation of the older games' style.

And I don't know which "earliest" games you mean. By the time there WAS character dialog, we'd advanced well beyond the point that technical limitations prevented player character speech.

Hell, if you can output digitized speech samples on a 2600, anything is possible.

So space limitation couldn't have been a factor? Of course any machine could display text, heck, I think that's the only thing the very first pseudo-computers did. edit: so "mostly" was perhaps inaccurate.

But I'm not convinced that the silent protagonist was ALWAYS an artistic choice, rather than something that was just easier to do, especially on eariler system (the N.e.s to give a concrete example)

At least I hope we agree that the "limited":

First time spoken: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Second time : "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Third time: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"

dialect of NPC is caused by technical limitation/size/time constraints and other development/budget considereations.

Birthrights: You are the chosen one and it is your destiny to save the world from evil. (So I can just stop trying, right?....)

Saving princesses, slaying dragons, and other chivalric crap.

Shallow antagonists who simply want to destroy the world and not reshape it according to some ideology.

Powerful artifacts guarded by vastly insufficient defenses.

Secondary characters dying and not staying dead.

But the biggest cliche of all... Japanese RPGs that begin with you waking up from your bed.

Heh heh, those are pretty good, Fitzroy.

I could add (this isn't necessarily related to scenario)

-The fact that the evil character almost always conveniently place a save/recovery point in their castle or whatever just before you are about to face them...damn, those villains sure love to fight fair. In contrast the heroes almost always outnumber the villain four or five to one lol(I realise these are obvious gameplay design)

[SquareHead]

Slight derailment: What game or games on the 2600 used speech samples?

[sweener2001]

So space limitation couldn't have been a factor? Of course any machine could display text, heck, I think that's the only thing the very first pseudo-computers did. edit: so "mostly" was perhaps inaccurate.

But I'm not convinced that the silent protagonist was ALWAYS an artistic choice, rather than something that was just easier to do, especially on eariler system (the N.e.s to give a concrete example)

At least I hope we agree that the "limited":

First time spoken: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Second time : "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Third time: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"

dialect of NPC is caused by technical limitation/size/time constraints and other development/budget considereations.

Or the fact that writing in inane speech was beyond pointless and a waste of the developer's time. NPC's are still like that today. Aside from having a few more topics to discuss (and only really in DnD cRPGs), NPC's do nothing but repeat the same thing over and over again. played FFX recently? and i find it funny that every single NPC has the exact same thing to say about the same topics in Morrowind.

your point doesn't demonstrate anything about space being an issue for protagonist speech at all. it's purely artistic. end of story.

[Gil_Hamilton]

Slight derailment: What game or games on the 2600 used speech samples?

Quadrun.
There's at least one other I can't think of right now...

So space limitation couldn't have been a factor?

Given you could free the space up easily by eliminating a few NPCs of no relevance?

But I'm not convinced that the silent protagonist was ALWAYS an artistic choice, rather than something that was just easier to do, especially on eariler system (the N.e.s to give a concrete example)

Easy because you didn't have to write dialog, not because of space limitations.

At least I hope we agree that the "limited":

First time spoken: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Second time : "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Third time: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"

dialect of NPC is caused by technical limitation/size/time constraints and other development/budget considereations.

Nope.

See Sweener's post.





Let's see...
Tactical nukes are among your WEAKEST weapons, and LOCKED DOORS are a serious impediment to your progress...

One of my personal peeves in cliche design.

[AntoineWG]

My favorite cliché: The wooden door.

You have a sword or an axe and an arsenal of magic spells and yet all are somehow useless against a rickety old door that looks like it would fall apart if you sneezed near it.

[Snark]

Slight derailment: What game or games on the 2600 used speech samples?

Quadrun.
There's at least one other I can't think of right now...

So space limitation couldn't have been a factor?

Given you could free the space up easily by eliminating a few NPCs of no relevance?

But I'm not convinced that the silent protagonist was ALWAYS an artistic choice, rather than something that was just easier to do, especially on eariler system (the N.e.s to give a concrete example)

Easy because you didn't have to write dialog, not because of space limitations.

At least I hope we agree that the "limited":

First time spoken: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Second time : "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Third time: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"

dialect of NPC is caused by technical limitation/size/time constraints and other development/budget considereations.

Nope.

See Sweener's post.





Let's see...
Tactical nukes are among your WEAKEST weapons, and LOCKED DOORS are a serious impediment to your progress...

One of my personal peeves in cliche design.

The problem with nuke weapons (a-bombs and such) is that, while they cover large areas, ultimately they do limited damage... A well place punch (or whip attack) on the other hand, while more limited in range, is more powerful because all the energy is focused in a single area. Basic physics really.



Classic 8-bit/16 "choice"

"Will you help us" *yes/no choice* (choose No)
"Will you help us" *yes/no choice* (choose No)
"Will you help us" *yes/no choice* (choose No)
"Will you help us" *yes/no choice* (choose Yes)

"Thank you brave warrior."

(it's about immersion and freedom of choice)

[Deathlike2]

Classic 8-bit/16 "choice"

"Will you help us" *yes/no choice* (choose No)
"Will you help us" *yes/no choice* (choose No)
"Will you help us" *yes/no choice* (choose No)
"Will you help us" *yes/no choice* (choose Yes)

"Thank you brave warrior."

(it's about immersion and freedom of choice)

You don't have control of fate, it is destiny! The button overlord from above has control over your actions! Cookie to where I'm referencing this from.

So space limitation couldn't have been a factor?

Given you could free the space up easily by eliminating a few NPCs of no relevance?

But I'm not convinced that the silent protagonist was ALWAYS an artistic choice, rather than something that was just easier to do, especially on eariler system (the N.e.s to give a concrete example)

Easy because you didn't have to write dialog, not because of space limitations.

At least I hope we agree that the "limited":

First time spoken: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Second time : "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"
Third time: "There's a treasure in the cave east of the village"

dialect of NPC is caused by technical limitation/size/time constraints and other development/budget considereations.

Nope.

See Sweener's post.

You are certainly wasting storage space for text. As long as the NPC provides relevent info for progressing or short non-info, then it is really a non-issue. I doubt their uses have actually changed over time. The common theme in most/all RPGs is that you talk to people around the town if you are unable to progress (some games use a few of them as triggers to continue the story) and that is the purpose they serve.

sweener does have a point as well. It is also artistic, since some are supposed to provide depth and background to characters/scenario and whatnot. 99% of the time, you could skip discussion with NPCs, but sometimes if you really wanted to enjoy the game, you talk with them for the sake of interest.

[SquareHead]

You don't have control of fate, it is destiny! The button overlord from above has control over your actions! Cookie to where I'm referencing this from.

Secret of Evermore? Crazy old man/seer in the bazaar?

[Gil_Hamilton]

The problem with nuke weapons (a-bombs and such) is that, while they cover large areas, ultimately they do limited damage... A well place punch (or whip attack) on the other hand, while more limited in range, is more powerful because all the energy is focused in a single area. Basic physics really.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, by all means provide some documented instances of a well-placed punch VAPORIZING something.


Basic physics says that for a fixed amount of energy, the focused one is stronger than the unfocused one.
Slightly more advanced physics says there are MASSIVELY larger amounts of energy released by the fissioning of uranium than by a human arm.

If you could punch hard enough to generate anything resembling the damage a nuke generates at ground zero, it would shred your arm to ribbons.

[Deathlike2]

You don't have control of fate, it is destiny! The button overlord from above has control over your actions! Cookie to where I'm referencing this from.

Secret of Evermore? Crazy old man/seer in the bazaar?

Heh, I didn't think people would play a game as bad as SOE. Cookie for you.

[Boksha]

and you forgot exploding barrels.

Mostly a first person shooter thing.
Speaking of FPS games, if I had a nickel for every crate I saw in an FPS game, and had to pay a nickel for every crate I saw anywhere else (including other games) I probably would've amassed quite a bit of cash by now.

Anyhow, something that has always amazed me about console RPGs is that running away generally involves the protagonist staying exactly where he is and the monsters disappearing. Actually interpreting "Run" as "Dance in place until the enemy is gone" is the only explanation I can think of for not being able to use that function against a completely immobile boss in a wide open area.

[Tallgeese]

You don't have control of fate, it is destiny! The button overlord from above has control over your actions! Cookie to where I'm referencing this from.

Secret of Evermore? Crazy old man/seer in the bazaar?

Heh, I didn't think people would play a game as bad as SOE. Cookie for you.

Ahhh, screw you. SoE is extremely entertaining, especially with 2 players.

[Deathlike2]

and you forgot exploding barrels.

Mostly a first person shooter thing.
Speaking of FPS games, if I had a nickel for every crate I saw in an FPS game, and had to pay a nickel for every crate I saw anywhere else (including other games) I probably would've amassed quite a bit of cash by now.

Anyhow, something that has always amazed me about console RPGs is that running away generally involves the protagonist staying exactly where he is and the monsters disappearing. Actually interpreting "Run" as "Dance in place until the enemy is gone" is the only explanation I can think of for not being able to use that function against a completely immobile boss in a wide open area.

Not being able to run should normally be a symptom of "there is nowhere to run" or "you don't want to run". However, games fail to convey that on many levels but I doubt you could find a legitmate way of making that realistic.

[Boksha]

Two solutions come to mind:
1. Let players run from boss battles normally. In a lot of situations there's really no reason not to do it like this, other than that running is programmed to not actually move the player (for this to work, running should warp the player out of the fight instead of the monsters)
2. "The boss just spat glue at your feet." (considering how much characters tend to move during a battle in most RPGs, this could actually work)

For indoor bosses, slamming the door shut behind the player should do the trick, and some games actually do this.

[Deathlike2]

Two solutions come to mind:
1. Let players run from boss battles normally. In a lot of situations there's really no reason not to do it like this, other than that running is programmed to not actually move the player (for this to work, running should warp the player out of the fight instead of the monsters)

That generally doesn't make sense. For some bosses, sure (for difficulty imbalance/story reason), but you certainly can't make this optional for most bosses. For regular battles, it depends a bit more on the enviornment.

2. "The boss just spat glue at your feet." (considering how much characters tend to move during a battle in most RPGs, this could actually work)

For indoor bosses, slamming the door shut behind the player should do the trick, and some games actually do this.

You can't do that for every boss, because that would be a silly cliche to be added in. Note older games didn't really factor in "doors" or invent "tight enclosures" so it's a tough sell to some extent.